Turn 51-100

[cav scout]

If we get Judaism it will spawn in the largest pop city after our capital. This isn't guaranteed but the mechanics make it likely enough that I'm willing to bet on it in the beer hall.

I'm leaning towards just running a really strong CE economy and going the Monarchy path. We can then leverage this to pay for more expansion and get ahead in the game with the monster empire path. I think going for the Mids would just be another side track that we would lose at this point.

More than anything though we need to come up with a strategy and stick to it! Changing direction every few turns with each new great idea hasn't served us to well so far.

 

[2metraninja]

More than anything though we need to come up with a strategy and stick to it! Changing direction every few turns with each new great idea hasn't served us to well so far.

I dont agree with that at all. Good players must be able to adapt and when they see good opportunity, to not be afraid to chase it. Not to mention that one cannot foresee everything. When I saw the opportunity for the SH and advocated to get it, the main reaction was: "Meh, how good SH can be?" and when RB took it under our noses all was: "Wow, those crafty smarties, how strong play on their side to get the SH!"

Then, when I said maybe Monarchy is better path than Writing, there were strong opinions against Monarchy "What good it makes us, we better stick with the plan for Writing, Libraries are great!" Now it happens that most players like the Monarchy path better and I am the one who questions it the strongest. But this is normal - I dont pretend I know everything and can predict everything in details. Of course we will try to adapt as we see how the game goes. If there is someone who can tell exactly what will be best and can predict exactly how things will turn out, let him come and speak.

I dont say I always propose the best ideas and I think it is normal in the beginning folks to be reluctant and unacceptable to new ideas or change in the plan, but as I see after some discussion and reasons told by everyone why they like/dislike given idea, sometimes people start to like the proposed change (like going Monarchy). And sometimes they still dont (as in the case with TGW) This is normal process of brainstorming/problem solving/decision making. There is nothing wrong in attempting at optimizing/change for good our play.

Now, I do agree that we must decide on a general path and that is why I raised the matter at all.
Actually, we did not had choose path and exactly here is the place to choose destination. We finish Mono in 2 turns and this is exactly the point where we decide what we tech next. For me, the main choices to be made are:

Do we take the Writing path? The essence of this choice is that it gives us Libraries for 25% bonus to research and opportunity to work 2 scientist, so we get a GS for Academy in some 25 turns) and then we can go Math for power chops and earlier shot at Currency (where we can convert hammers in money)
or
Do we take the Monarchy path? The main feature of this one is that we can switch to Hereditary Rule and grow big big cities which work many cottages/mines without the need for settling many additional cities to be hit by the severe maintenance costs for this Emperor level + toroidal map.

 

[Aivoturso]

Maximum Known Tech Bonus is 30%, so the formula is 30% * # of Known Teams with Tech / Total # of Teams. So, for each team we know with the Tech, we get 30% / 8 = 3.75% Research Bonus. This is on top of the Pre-Req Bonus.

For Writing, we would currently get 20% Pottery Pre-req + 20% AH Pre-req + 3.75% RB Known Tech Bonus = 43.75% total bonus (or more if additional teams have Writing and we just don't know it).

If we wait, get Monarchy and PH first, and research it much later when we know maybe 4 teams that also have it, then the bonus would be 20% Pottery + 20% AH + 20% PH + (3.75% * 4) = 75% total bonus.

Actually, according to the article the formula for total beakers is: FLOOR (FLOOR ((Total Base Beakers + 1) * KCwT modifier) * Prerequisites modifier). So these are among few of the bonuses that actually multiply instead of just summing together. Also, the know tech bonus is for nine starting Civs ,us included, so correct known tech modifier is 3.33... %. Using the same examples as Yossa the multiplier we'd get with two prerequisites and one team with Writing is approximately 1.4*1.0333... = 1.44666... So the bonus is about +44.7 %. With all three prerequisites and for teams having it, the multiplier is about 1.6*1.1333... = 1.81333... resulting in about +81.3 % bonus beakers. This is not exact number due to rounding down after each multiplication, so the real number is abit lower. But it gives us an idea that having one more prerequisite and a few more people having the tech can almost double the bonus.

BTW, I strongly recommend reading the Repercussions chapter in the tech research article (see Yossa's link) with a thought. Especially interesting are repercussions #1 (establish contact with all teams ASAP) and #4 (try to optimize the overflow based on tech bonuses).

 

[YossarianLives]

Thanks for the clarifications Aivo!

All our major decisions coming up really depend on whether or not we’re going for the Pyramids. I’d rather not try for the Pyramids because 1) They work best when running SE, while we’ve been gearing everything towards CE, which is a strong strategy without Pyramids, 2) Pyramids are very expensive and will require us to immediately devote a large number of resources towards this, and 3) If we lose the Pyramids the failgold will not be enough to compensate all the sacrifices we’ll need to make.

I’m following with what I think we’ll need to do if we decide to go for the Pyramids. I’ll put my actual preferences for these areas in their respective threads:

Tech Path
If we’re going for the Pyramids, Writing->Maths seems like the most logical Tech path. We’ll need Writing for the Libraries to open up Scientist slots, and maybe we can get Maths in time to help with chops into the Pyramids, that would be great. We’ll probably need two turns of collecting gold and 5 turns of research to complete Writing, and then maybe about 15-20 turns for Maths, giving us 30-hammer forest chops in about 20-30 turns. That sounds about right as far as when we would want Pyramids to be completing.

Next City Location
Our next city would need to provide us with Stone. This means either settling on top of or adjacent to the Stone near our mid-way point with RB. I would then prefer to focus our next 1 or 2 cities after this to fill the gap between our core and our Stone city, to bring the Stone city closer into our empire and make it easier to reinforce. These next cities would probably be the Pig/Wines city west of Indira, and the Horses city northwest of Daivagati.

Diplomacy with RB
I am pretty certain we would be unable to hold the Stone city against a concentrated attack from RB. That means that diplomacy with them right now is crucial to securing this location for us. Most likely, we’ll be able to get RB to concede this to us without problems, but there is a possibility that we will have to give them concessions if they decide to play hardball. We just can’t keep this city against their will right now.
We have a NAP with RB until T100, so unless they go back on their word, our Stone city would be safe until after Pyramids are built and Stone is no longer absolutely crucial.

 

[2metraninja]

To be honest I rarely go for the Pyramids in my games and even more, I rarely remember set things as dates (get this by that date), numbers (have 100 bpt sustainable at 1AD, have 1.5 workers per city, etc), so I dont know what date is still OK for the Pyramids. Can anyone tell us? Or maybe we can look at other completed games with spoiler threads? In MTDG2 Team Mavericks built the Pyramids, I will try to find their complete date. Yossa, can you look at some RB games so we can compare Pyramids dates and we can make better estimation if we are late or we are OK with the ETA of the Pyramids.

 

[2metraninja]

BTW, I have settled Lana and it almost not decreased our commerce. It went from +19 gpt to something like 16 gpt, but when I set Lana to work the unimproved gold, it went back to 19 gpt.

 

[vranasm]

To be honest I rarely go for the Pyramids in my games and even more, I rarely remember set things as dates (get this by that date), numbers (have 100 bpt sustainable at 1AD, have 1.5 workers per city, etc), so I dont know what date is still OK for the Pyramids. Can anyone tell us? Or maybe we can look at other completed games with spoiler threads? In MTDG2 Team Mavericks built the Pyramids, I will try to find their complete date. Yossa, can you look at some RB games so we can compare Pyramids dates and we can make better estimation if we are late or we are OK with the ETA of the Pyramids.

you ask about SP or MP dates? because if we start to talk about SP against AI good time for Mids is to have them finished around T75....

there is another aspect to it... as with everything every big investment (cities included) needs some time to pay back for its investment. The later you do/get the investment the worse for you.

Let's say we would play typical game on Emperor Pangea map against AI's, we should expect us to win around T200 conquest/domination (it's something around 1400 AD if I remember right and even then one could argue that you can finish Emperor Pangea conquest sooner with stellar start), then you can easily see that getting Mids after certain point has no value since it will never pay back.

It's clear that MP games are here for a bit longer haul then to finish at 1400 AD so we have some bigger timeframe to pay back big investments.

 

[YossarianLives]

Two quick things I noticed when I popped into the game today.

-UCiv has a Warrior visiting us near our northern border. I believe this is the first rival unit that has come within vision of our borders.

-Someone got a Great Scientist this turn! That means a much earlier focus on Writing than I had assumed. I guess it's probably Apolyton, as the only Phi team? They must have finished Writing on T43, after getting Pottery on T36.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yossa, can you look at some RB games so we can compare Pyramids dates and we can make better estimation if we are late or we are OK with the ETA of the Pyramids.

In RB's PB 7, Mackoti and SevenSpirits settled their Stone city circa T65, started the Mids T67, and completed them T73.

In RB's PB 4, Mackoti and Ioan76 completed the Mids about T78.

 

[RegentMan]

Catching up here but I'll add my voice against going for the Pyramids.

 

[2metraninja]

Midskotti as they called him. Those are early dates with concentrated and deliberated run for the Pyramids I think. What was the situation with stone in those games? (I am at work and our gate defender denies me seeing RealmsBeyond. Trying to find the date Mavericks built The Pyramids last MTDG. Anyone?

 

[2metraninja]

Could not found for sure about Maverick's Pyramids, but at turn 69 they had it built already

It was a tech-trading game though. Still I dont know if they had traded anything till then (need Alpha and good diplo-standing)

 

[2metraninja]

Sigh, it seems I will have to try and convince you with a strong sandbox. Vranasm, are you trying the sandbox soon?

For me the question is more of "Can we get The Pyramids and what if we did not".

"How good those Mids can actually be?" question is absolutely out. With 8 cities and libraries you can have 100 bpt only from Rep scientists. Not to mention that for 225 real hammers production you get the benefits from a 550 beakers tech and many more opportunities.

 

[vranasm]

Sigh, it seems I will have to try and convince you with a strong sandbox. Vranasm, are you trying the sandbox soon?

For me the question is more of "Can we get The Pyramids and what if we did not".

"How good those Mids can actually be?" question is absolutely out. With 8 cities and libraries you can have 100 bpt only from Rep scientists. Not to mention that for 225 real hammers production you get the benefits from a 550 beakers tech and many more opportunities.

well most probably first look afternoon...but I have some things going now and waking up 5 am and going to sleep at ~21 pm and totally exhausted...

it's 250 hammers btw not 225 and there is a question if we couldn't run 100 bpt without building the mids anyways, that depends on land though.

CE is strong option if run early.

as I said I hope I will get the opportunity to open the save today afternoon/evening and give some honest opinion, but promised already couple of things to some other peops.

 

[2metraninja]

I hope we get Judaism in Terasvin and we run Organized Religion so it is still 225 hammers (or even 223 hammers (500/2.25) - not sure how rounding works here). If not, we can build one missionary and send him there 225 real hammers are like two 5-turns whip 4->2 cycles with overflow in The Pyramids + 3 Math powered chops and some 10 turns natural hammers build. The limiting factor here would be the timing when we get stone connected actually.

And for a failgold, are you serious it is not good at 2:1 ratio? This early, hammers are everywhere, while commerce is sparse. 2:1 is great ration. Even 1:1 is good to be able to make if you need it.

As for 100 bpt, sure we will be able to run those. The 100 bpt I mention are solely from 8 libraries. We will still work maximum riverside cottages. And those 100 bpt are on top of the +3 happy faces in our 5 biggest cities without the need for spending 550 beakers in Monarchy. And those +3 happy will come not later than actually teching Monarchy and running HR.

 

[vranasm]

I had to miss the "fail gold part" somewhere... yeah failgold is good, but if you can actually spare the hammers as bonus.

I still think we can't connect stone sooner then cca 15 turns, but for sure I will look into it once opening the save.

 

[Aivoturso]

Could not found for sure about Maverick's Pyramids, but at turn 69 they had it built already

It was a tech-trading game though. Still I dont know if they had traded anything till then (need Alpha and good diplo-standing)

Tech trading probably didn't matter since they got Pyramids so early. What matters, though, is that the last MTDG was run in Monarch difficulty. Now we're Emperors.

 

[2metraninja]

As for this turn, I want to introduce to you the idea to put the ~30 hammers overflow from Terasvin in to a settler instead of a second axe. This way we can whip a settler from Terasvin for 2 pop very soon or have it the normal build in 7 turns. Maybe thats the biggest decission we need to take this turn. What you guys think?

 

[YossarianLives]

Hmm, I think I'd prefer the second Axe. I really think we need two right now just to protect us from the Barbs. One to protect our Hamlets and western cities, and another to protect Lana. I am much less fearful of the Spaniards than I was 5 or 10 turns ago, but without at least one Axe over there, even a Barb could be a serious threat to our cities, or at least our improvements. It'll also be nice if we have a couple Axe's in our power graph by the time the Spaniards can see it in a few turns.

Plus, I'm hesitant to do another Whip in Terasvin, seeing as how we already have 2 whip unhappiness stacked there, meaning we have an unhappy citizen at size 3, even with a garrison. If we do put the overflow into a settler, I'd rather slow-build it to completion in 7 turns.

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, whipping does not help much with the settler indeed.

Another thing we need to decide is do we want Azza go and help LP and Hushc (this must have been Nabaho - they 3 would have made great team there lol). By Azza going and helping them, we will work the Pig 1 turn earlier. I think it is worth.