Turn Discussion Thread

I was thinking of naming our first Warrior Orion. Maybe using constellations for some units at least. We could name workers after the players in our team. :D

Naming units is a good idea. We could name units like Messier objects (M1, M2, M3, etc... keeping with the Astronomy theme). It would be easier than coming up with unique names for each).
 
Turn 10 - 3600 BC

Warrior moved, nothing new revealed this turn. Amazons are the only ones who have not researched a tech yet (still at 33 points), meaning they didn't go Fishing first, which is surprising if their start was similar to ours.

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Turn 10 - 3600 BC

Warrior moved, nothing new revealed this turn. Amazons are the only ones who have not researched a tech yet (still at 33 points), meaning they didn't go Fishing first, which is surprising if their start was similar to ours.

I think that jives with the demographics guess that they were researching AH first.

Also, I like the minor-planets theme.
I was going to suggest astronauts, but that is a BIG list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronauts_by_name
 
A few days ago, their was some concern with regards to the security of publishing Google Doc spreadsheets with team micro plans on them. I looked into the matter, and as far as I can tell, simply moving them to the Documents tab of the team email account as we have done is no more secure than publishing the url in our private forum, but either of these seems fairly secure.

The help documents state:

Your files will not appear in Google Web Search results. Published files may appear in other search engines.

I can verify this for Google searches. I could not find the "Sirius micro plan" document with Bing either. My tentative conclusion is that they safe and we might as well have links in this thread since it is as secure as our Gmail account.

Should we so choose, there is a full description of how to limit access to invited users in the help article here.
 
So; what's the next actual decision we're going to need to make? As far as I'm aware, we're happy to:
* Research bronze working and the wheel. I would suggest pottery next.
* Improve both golds with the worker.
* Build a workboat as the next build item, to claim the ocean fish.
* Camp the warrior, once it's finished exploring, on the second northmost silk to spawnbust the entire island (by turn 25 when our borders pop again at least anyway). Actually no-one agreed to this but no-one's disagreed either.

So, that will keep us completely busy for at least the next dozen or so turns. In the meantime, I propose we start arguing about what to do next. I'll start it off with some more controvertial statements.

1. I think we should beeline writing via pottery, and build a library as soon as writing is finished (subject to maybe finishing what we're building first).
2. I think we should get Animal Handling before Writing if and only if it won't delay the library by more than a turn or so anyway. The 25% bonus from the library is better than the 20% bonus from having AH before Writing anyway.
3. Before the library, I think we should build a (third) workboat, then a settler.
4. I think we should plant the (third) workboat on a fish near the second city. The second city is as good as the capital, the sooner we can get it in action the better.
5. Along the same lines, I think we should send the worker to improve the gold in the second city as soon as we settle it.
6. We should have a turn or two of 0% research slider to save up some cash just before we build the library. Maybe between getting writing and building the library.

If we send the (third) workboat exploring instead, we should still build a (fourth) workboat in the capital to help get the second city off the ground quicker. I'd personally prefer to build a galley (or two) a little later, put a couple of warriors on it, and start exploring with the galley and the warriors.
 
So; what's the next actual decision we're going to need to make? As far as I'm aware, we're happy to:
* Research bronze working and the wheel. I would suggest pottery next.
* Improve both golds with the worker.
* Build a workboat as the next build item, to claim the ocean fish.
* Camp the warrior, once it's finished exploring, on the second northmost silk to spawnbust the entire island (by turn 25 when our borders pop again at least anyway). Actually no-one agreed to this but no-one's disagreed either.
All agreed. Also note that the Worker should improve the southernmost Gold first, then prebuild a road on the tile 1NE of that Gold, then improve the other Gold. We might want to come back and finish off the road before the Settler is built to shave 1 turn off its travel, but only if this won't interfere with its arrival time through chops.

So, that will keep us completely busy for at least the next dozen or so turns. In the meantime, I propose we start arguing about what to do next. I'll start it off with some more controvertial statements.

1. I think we should beeline writing via pottery, and build a library as soon as writing is finished (subject to maybe finishing what we're building first).
Sure.

2. I think we should get Animal Handling before Writing if and only if it won't delay the library by more than a turn or so anyway. The 25% bonus from the library is better than the 20% bonus from having AH before Writing anyway.
I think (have to check) that this would delay the Library by 2 or 3 turns. Also, we have to keep in mind that we're researching pretty fast, and other teams are likely to be researching similarly fast, so someone will likely have Alphabet early and we may be able to trade for AH (and other early techs we may miss).

3. Before the library, I think we should build a (third) workboat, then a settler.
Disagree respectfully; this'd delay the Library by probably around 3 or 4 turns (have to check). I'd rather meet another team 3-4 turns later than sacrifice around 30 beakers.

EDIT: Hang on, isn't this what we already had planned? Our builds, as I had planned in my tests, were:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat -> Work Boat -> Settler -> Library

So yeah, this is no different. ;)

4. I think we should plant the (third) workboat on a fish near the second city. The second city is as good as the capital, the sooner we can get it in action the better.
Oh, you meant for working a Fish and not exploring? In that case I disagree even more. The second city will be able to build its two Work Boats in not much more than 10 turns; I don't see much benefit in speeding that up by 5 turns or so. (It'll have to be size 2 before it can even use the second Fish as well, not to mention taking 5 turns for the border to expand.)

EDIT: Actually, if you meant the build order above, then the third Work Boat will have at least 10 turns of "dead time" while it sits around waiting for the second city to be built and expand its borders before it can work the Fish, at which point the second city will have its own Work Boat anyway. This is why we should send the third Work Boat exploring instead.

5. Along the same lines, I think we should send the worker to improve the gold in the second city as soon as we settle it.
This seems like something worth investigating. I'm inclined to think that getting the second city to build its own Worker after hooking up the 2 Fish might be better; that or getting the capital to build another Worker after the Library (or both of these options). That's just because chopping at the capital will be so necessary to get out the things we want (Library, more Work Boats, perhaps Granary, etc) faster. However, this should definitely be tested, as hooking up the river Gold early at the second city site would also be a pretty strong move.

6. We should have a turn or two of 0% research slider to save up some cash just before we build the library. Maybe between getting writing and building the library.
Possibly, if we're going to be at a loss of at least -1 GPT after building the second city. If not, I'd keep running at 100%.

If we send the (third) workboat exploring instead, we should still build a (fourth) workboat in the capital to help get the second city off the ground quicker. I'd personally prefer to build a galley (or two) a little later, put a couple of warriors on it, and start exploring with the galley and the warriors.
I thought the plan was to send the third Work Boat (the build before the Settler) exploring? Certainly we need to meet at least 1 other civ fairly early on to try to ensure we have at least one good trading partner in future. I also anticipated the fourth Work Boat from the capital being sent exploring; indeed, this one would be hard pressed to reach the second city before it could improve its own Fish.

Waiting for a Galley before we begin our exploration would put us at quick a diplomatic disadvantage (because some of the other teams would surely meet earlier and make deals between themselves). I would rather do the Galley + Warrior thing later on in combination with the earlier Work Boats.
 
I think (have to check) that this would delay the Library by 2 or 3 turns. Also, we have to keep in mind that we're researching pretty fast, and other teams are likely to be researching similarly fast, so someone will likely have Alphabet early and we may be able to trade for AH (and other early techs we may miss).

Worthwhile delay for horses.

This seems like something worth investigating. I'm inclined to think that getting the second city to build its own Worker after hooking up the 2 Fish might be better; that or getting the capital to build another Worker after the Library (or both of these options). That's just because chopping at the capital will be so necessary to get out the things we want (Library, more Work Boats, perhaps Granary, etc) faster. However, this should definitely be tested, as hooking up the river Gold early at the second city site would also be a pretty strong move.

Whipping in the 2nd city means it has less of a need for workers.

Crack the whip!

Possibly, if we're going to be at a loss of at least -1 GPT after building the second city. If not, I'd keep running at 100%.

We most certainly will be running a loss upon the construction of our 2nd city unless we have a shrine or we're running priests.

I thought the plan was to send the third Work Boat (the build before the Settler) exploring? Certainly we need to meet at least 1 other civ fairly early on to try to ensure we have at least one good trading partner in future. I also anticipated the fourth Work Boat from the capital being sent exploring; indeed, this one would be hard pressed to reach the second city before it could improve its own Fish.

The 2nd city needs 2 workboats anyway. The quicker it can build its granary, the quicker we can whip in it.

Waiting for a Galley before we begin our exploration would put us at quick a diplomatic disadvantage (because some of the other teams would surely meet earlier and make deals between themselves). I would rather do the Galley + Warrior thing later on in combination with the earlier Work Boats.

3rd workboat explore, 4th help 2nd city is my preference
 
Worthwhile delay for horses.

If we didn't have so many forests around I would be entirely in this camp. Right now I don't know if I mind either way.

Whipping in the 2nd city means it has less of a need for workers.

Agreed with whipping in the 2nd city; but regardless of the whipping argument we are going to need more workers. I think the 1st worker should chop out a 2nd worker in the capital after the library finishes. The second city may even want to chop/whip out a worker of it's own after it's 1st or 2nd fish boat.

We most certainly will be running a loss upon the construction of our 2nd city unless we have a shrine or we're running priests.

Yes, it will probably be -1gpt. Since we're going to have to do a turn of 0% gold, might as well do it right before the library completes to stockpile the gold to burn through at a deficit when we have the beaker multiplier of the library.

The 2nd city needs 2 workboats anyway. The quicker it can build its granary, the quicker we can whip in it.

Insert Devo soundtrack here.

3rd workboat explore, 4th help 2nd city is my preference

I agree. LP went into good reasoning as to why.
 
In regards to the AH question I ran the following test a few days ago to give a general idea. It can be improved but I just haven't done it yet.

Test case 1 is without AH
Test case 2 is with AH.

Not a perfect test as I changed build over to accommodate writing being 2 turns late after settler is built.

Code:
Test Case #1
Turn 15: Worker completed and moves onto SW Gold. Workboat started.
Turn 16: The Wheel completed. Back onto Bronze Working. Worker starts mining the SW Gold.
Turn 20: Worker moves 1NE and pre-builds road. Sirius grows to pop2 and works 1fish+1gold.
Turn 21: Worker moves to NE Gold.
Turn 22: Worker starts to mine NE Gold.
Turn 24: Bronze Working completes and we start Pottery. Workboat completes and moves to fish. Start another Workboat.
Turn 25: Work both fish tiles to speed up pop growth to 1 turn (from 2).
Turn 26: Sirius pop3 (2fish+gold). Worker 1W to forest.
Turn 27: Worker starts chop.
Turn 28: Pottery completes. Start on Writing.
Turn 30: Chop completes and finishes Workboat. Excess hammers into a Settler. Worker 1W to forest. Workboat off to explore other islands. Sirius also makes pop4 this turn (2fish+2gold).
Turn 31: Worker starts chop.
Turn 34: Writing completed. Researching Sailing. Worker chop finished. Worker 2S1W to forest.
Turn 35: Settler finished and heads to NW city site. Worker starts chop. Library started.
Turn 38: Sailing completed. Worker chop completed.
Turn 39: 2nd City founded. Library completed.
Turn 42: Sirius to pop5.

Stats:
Beakers: Mining (74) + BW (179) + Wheel (89) + Pottery (119) + Writing (179) + Sailing (149) +180 (placeholder) = 969 Beakers
Hammers: WB (30) + Worker (60) + WB (30) + WB (30) + Settler (100) + Library (90) + 31 (placeholder in sirius) + 6 (placeholder in 2nd city) = 377 (317 without 3 chops)
Food:  Pop4 (100) + 0 in storage = 100
 
Test Case #2
Turn 15: Worker completed and moves onto SW Gold. Workboat started.
Turn 16: The Wheel completed. Back onto Bronze Working. Worker starts mining the SW Gold.
Turn 20: Worker moves 1NE and pre-builds road. Sirius grows to pop2 and works 1fish+1gold.
Turn 21: Worker moves to NE Gold.
Turn 22: Worker starts to mine NE Gold.
Turn 24: Bronze Working completes and we start Animal Husbandry. Workboat completes and moves to fish. Start another Workboat.
Turn 25: Work both fish tiles to speed up pop growth to 1 turn (from 2).
Turn 26: Sirius pop3 (2fish+gold). Worker 1W to forest.
Turn 27: Worker starts chop.
Turn 30: Animal Husbandry completes. Researching Pottery. Chop completes and finishes Workboat. Excess hammers into a Settler. Worker 1W to forest. Workboat off to explore other islands. Sirius also makes pop4 this turn (2fish+2gold).
Turn 31: Worker starts chop.
Turn 33: Pottery completed. Now researching Writing.
Turn 34: Worker chop finished. Worker 2S1W to forest.
Turn 35: Settler finished and heads to NW city site. Worker starts chop. Worker started.
Turn 37: Writing completed and starting on Sailing. Build changed to Library.
Turn 38: Worker chop completed. Worker 1SE to forest.
Turn 39: 2nd City founded. Worker starts chop.
Turn 41: Library completed. Back onto worker.
Turn 42: Worker completed with chop. Sailing completed.

Stats:
Beakers: Mining (74) + BW (179) + Wheel (89) + AH (149) + Pottery (119) + Writing (179) + Sailing (149) +39 (placeholder) = 977 Beakers
Hammers: WB (30) + Worker (60) + WB (30) + WB (30) + Settler (100) + Library (90) +Worker (60) + 3 (placeholder in sirius) + 6 (placeholder in 2nd city) = 409 (329 without 4 chops)
Food:  Pop4 (72) + 16 in storage = 88
 
Hi,
Just checking in. Interesting map! When our borders expand, can a galley cross SE to that grassland?
 
Hi,
Just checking in. Interesting map! When our borders expand, can a galley cross SE to that grassland?

Hey! Welcome to the game. The expansion to size two already gave us diagonal route to the grassland in the SE, we'll likely be sending our third workboat out to take a look at what's over there.
 
I agree. LP went into good reasoning as to why.
Actually, I thought I argued for sending BOTH the third and fourth Work Boats exploring, which is not what Azzaman was in favour of. ;)

Hi,
Just checking in. Interesting map! When our borders expand, can a galley cross SE to that grassland?
Yes, Galleys can travel across ocean within your own cultural borders. :)
 
Turn 11 - 3560 BC

Warrior moved 1E. No new resources revealed.

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We're likely to have more than one sea bridge -- at least two if we can plant a city in the SW so that its border expansion creates a bridge that direction. I think exploring boats should go different directions, else we run the risk of picking the wrong one. So maybe a 2nd settler before the 4th workboat?
 
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