You seem to be rushing to play these turns recently. There isn't a time pressure on this, make sure to slow down and check the forums first, we don't want to do things before the team has had a chance to decide, we're at a critical point in the game right now.
Turn Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lord Parkin
- Start date
You seem to be rushing to play these turns recently. There isn't a time pressure on this, make sure to slow down and check the forums first, we don't want to do things before the team has had a chance to decide, we're at a critical point in the game right now.
pindicator
Emperor
Trystero, agree with your assessment 100%. We definitely want them using their GE on a wonder and not the tech. And as soon as they use their GE on a religion, the sooner we can feel safe in sinking their ship and not having to deal with any crossbow invaders.
Unfortunately I agree 100% with your Edit too -- it looks like 1 person posted between the time when the turn update post went up and the time the turn was finished. There was no chance for discussion or to find out what we as a team are going to do.
Unfortunately I agree 100% with your Edit too -- it looks like 1 person posted between the time when the turn update post went up and the time the turn was finished. There was no chance for discussion or to find out what we as a team are going to do.
Trystero
Deity
We have just received a reply from Quatronia, OKing letting the Maverick work boat through. Here's what I think we should do in our response to Merlot:
1. Offer them safe passage through our waters
2. Offer them Open Borders as a sign of our good will (this is in keeping with point 1, since their trireme would need OB with us to pass).
3. Sadly decline their trade offer without giving specifics.
This buys us time to settle aggressively on Bode, and build up military. Hopefully it will delay them getting Machinery. It also prevents us from becoming involved in a two front war since we have a defensive agreement with Amazon, and we may need to assist them against Merlot.
1. Offer them safe passage through our waters
2. Offer them Open Borders as a sign of our good will (this is in keeping with point 1, since their trireme would need OB with us to pass).
3. Sadly decline their trade offer without giving specifics.
This buys us time to settle aggressively on Bode, and build up military. Hopefully it will delay them getting Machinery. It also prevents us from becoming involved in a two front war since we have a defensive agreement with Amazon, and we may need to assist them against Merlot.
My take on the current situation is that we want Merlot to use their great person to bulb Machinery. If the Mavericks and Merlot succeed in meeting it would be nice if they'd double teched such a large technology and wasted so much.
We should negotiate for a trade of machinery from both the Mavericks and Merlot. At the moment the Maverick's greatest advantage is that they are going to have crossbows. They'll be deleayed because they don't have IW yet, but once they get crossbows it will cause trouble for us. If we can get them to trade away this tech without paying a huge premium for it we'll be in great shape. We'll have two opportunities to trade for this tech, from the Mavericks, and from Merlot, so we can shop for the cheaper price, if either of them offers us a good deal we take it, otherwise we back out.
We should negotiate for a trade of machinery from both the Mavericks and Merlot. At the moment the Maverick's greatest advantage is that they are going to have crossbows. They'll be deleayed because they don't have IW yet, but once they get crossbows it will cause trouble for us. If we can get them to trade away this tech without paying a huge premium for it we'll be in great shape. We'll have two opportunities to trade for this tech, from the Mavericks, and from Merlot, so we can shop for the cheaper price, if either of them offers us a good deal we take it, otherwise we back out.
Trystero
Deity
I am considering the following course of action: Since there seems to be general agreement within the team and from Quatronia that we should let the Mavericks through, I suggest we send a response offering them Open Borders, while telling them that we are still considering their trade offer.
The two options for trade are:
1. Decline the trade, stating our current agreements prevent us from from making such a deal. Problem: response unpredictable
2. With the agreement of the rest of the ETTA, trade for Machinery (we get Metal Casting from CDZ this turn), and offer a short term non-aggression pact (say 25 turns, or so). This would free up CDZ to research Optics immediately, and give us a tech we need for Astronomy and crossbowmen. Most importantly, this would give us time to better prepare for direct confrontation, and prevent us from getting involved with two wars immediately, while we aggressively settle Bode (I think we now need to grab the pigs/clam after site B site even if we don't have enough workers). Problem: giving them some military techs (at least IW).
What does everybody think?
For reference, here is their current tech situation:
The two options for trade are:
1. Decline the trade, stating our current agreements prevent us from from making such a deal. Problem: response unpredictable
2. With the agreement of the rest of the ETTA, trade for Machinery (we get Metal Casting from CDZ this turn), and offer a short term non-aggression pact (say 25 turns, or so). This would free up CDZ to research Optics immediately, and give us a tech we need for Astronomy and crossbowmen. Most importantly, this would give us time to better prepare for direct confrontation, and prevent us from getting involved with two wars immediately, while we aggressively settle Bode (I think we now need to grab the pigs/clam after site B site even if we don't have enough workers). Problem: giving them some military techs (at least IW).
What does everybody think?
For reference, here is their current tech situation:
Spoiler :
Trystero
Deity
With regards to option 2 above, what about sending something like this to the rest of the ETTA:
I think that looks pretty good. I'd add a few more things though.
I think I'd also include something saying that we would also recomend that the Amazons look to get machinery from Merlot, but before either of us commit to a trade we compare and see who is getting the better deal.
I think trying to work deals with both of our enemies is an important part of this strategy, because it makes it more likely that Merlot will waste their great engineer getting a tech that the Mavericks have already discovered, and we'll be able to get the tech from whoever is the cheaper sell.
The other thing I'd mention is that machinery seems to be the biggest advantage the Mavericks have at the moment, so if we can get it from them without too much of a cost it will be a big benefit to the alliance.
I think I'd also include something saying that we would also recomend that the Amazons look to get machinery from Merlot, but before either of us commit to a trade we compare and see who is getting the better deal.
I think trying to work deals with both of our enemies is an important part of this strategy, because it makes it more likely that Merlot will waste their great engineer getting a tech that the Mavericks have already discovered, and we'll be able to get the tech from whoever is the cheaper sell.
The other thing I'd mention is that machinery seems to be the biggest advantage the Mavericks have at the moment, so if we can get it from them without too much of a cost it will be a big benefit to the alliance.
1889
Mayor of H-Marker Lake
I am not the most active player but a one time trade for Machinery sounds like a clever gambit provided they do not make stipulations about not being able to trade it to other teams. Good luck getting that organized through email. Would it be possable to set-up a private forum someplace for ETTA members?
Trystero
Deity
Grant: While I agree the scenario you outline would be optimal, I don't see how we could get that worked out under the current circumstances. Recall that Merlot is at war with both Amazons and Quatronia, so either we or CDZ would have to negotiate that trade. Even if we did so, if Mavericks gives us Machinery in 2 turns, CDZ is the team we'd want to pass it on to so they could research Optics. Merlot would immediately realize we have the tech and wonder what's up. Also, we may be forced to take military action against Merlot (well, at least declare war, even if it is a fake war) since we have a defensive pact with Amazon.
I think the best outcome is a one-time deal with Mavericks that gets the alliance Machinery and reassures them for a while allowing us to better prepare for the coming conflict.
If the team agrees with this plan, I will send the message to the ETTA members.
Merlot don't have Machinery, they don't even have Metal Casting. I think there's been some confusion between the two 'M' teams.
I'm concerned about two things. One being that we don't want to trade anything to Mavericks. It helps our opponent, and disadvantages the western side of the ETTT over the eastern by doing so (in that all four teams get Machinery, but only the western side boosts their opponents to do so).
The second being that when we trade (in fact not even trade but gift!) Machniery to three other civs they're going to get irate. Or at the very least doing that might make the tech alliance clearer rather than obscuring it. And if we just hang on to Machinery we're breaking the ETTT.
Whether we attempt to negotiate a deal for Machinery with the intention of failing to come to an agreement is another question...
I'm concerned about two things. One being that we don't want to trade anything to Mavericks. It helps our opponent, and disadvantages the western side of the ETTT over the eastern by doing so (in that all four teams get Machinery, but only the western side boosts their opponents to do so).
The second being that when we trade (in fact not even trade but gift!) Machniery to three other civs they're going to get irate. Or at the very least doing that might make the tech alliance clearer rather than obscuring it. And if we just hang on to Machinery we're breaking the ETTT.
Whether we attempt to negotiate a deal for Machinery with the intention of failing to come to an agreement is another question...
By the way, as frightening as Maverick crossbows are, they at least need to research archery first 
I suggest that we go for Fuedalism after Code of Laws. We can probably get longbows (a good counter to crossbows) before crossbows become a problem. And Fuedalism is the other pre-requisite to Civil Service, for added tech path efficiency.
I suggest that we go for Fuedalism after Code of Laws. We can probably get longbows (a good counter to crossbows) before crossbows become a problem. And Fuedalism is the other pre-requisite to Civil Service, for added tech path efficiency.
azzaman333
meh
Mavericks will not agree to a trade for Machinery without stipulating that it cannot be shared. As such, it's futile attempting to trade with them.
Trystero
Deity
By the way, as frightening as Maverick crossbows are, they at least need to research archery first
I suggest that we go for Fuedalism after Code of Laws. We can probably get longbows (a good counter to crossbows) before crossbows become a problem. And Fuedalism is the other pre-requisite to Civil Service, for added tech path efficiency.
This sounds like an excellent idea to me. If the rest of the team agrees we should let the ETTA know.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Sounds good, we should bet getting our military up to par.
AlphaShard
Emperor
Turn 68 - 1280 BC
On our Main Island Hell_Hound has moved to AC spot to chop forest next turn for the 14 hammers. 3rd worker will be finished next turn in Sirius. Canopus will complete it's settler in 3 turns. Also we get Code of Laws next turn, cross fingers for Confusionism.
On Bode both Pallas and Vesta are healed, one is 1sw of LP working on the Copper. The other is 1W of Pig. No Barbs in sight. Enterprise moved to port of Arcturus awaiting to see if this is where Confu is founded.
Update from Voyager location, some of CDZ culture can be seen in the south.
End turn has not been hit.
Demographics:
On our Main Island Hell_Hound has moved to AC spot to chop forest next turn for the 14 hammers. 3rd worker will be finished next turn in Sirius. Canopus will complete it's settler in 3 turns. Also we get Code of Laws next turn, cross fingers for Confusionism.
Spoiler :
On Bode both Pallas and Vesta are healed, one is 1sw of LP working on the Copper. The other is 1W of Pig. No Barbs in sight. Enterprise moved to port of Arcturus awaiting to see if this is where Confu is founded.
Spoiler :
Update from Voyager location, some of CDZ culture can be seen in the south.
Spoiler :
End turn has not been hit.
Demographics:
Spoiler :
pindicator
Emperor
Even if they don't put the stipulation of no-brokering in the deal, I still don't like trading for Machinery with Maverick. Yes, it speeds up our research by 1 technology -- but we have 4 teams teching along in our ETTT, so comparatively we're getting the benefit of a 1/4 of a civ worth of research.
At the same time it advances Maverick by 2 technologies: first of all the tech(s) we trade for Machinery; the second tech being the fact that they are using a GE to bulb for the tech. As they stated, if they cannot get a good deal they will not bulb the GE and instead use him for a wonder.
It's the comparative technological difference that matters when we invade, not necessarily how fast we get to the invasion. I don't see this trade doing anything to benefit our advantage.
I have no idea with bluffing like we will trade with them, or stalling them by talking about trading but making conditions we know they won't agree to -- like brokering the tech, for instance. But please don't do this tech deal.
At the same time it advances Maverick by 2 technologies: first of all the tech(s) we trade for Machinery; the second tech being the fact that they are using a GE to bulb for the tech. As they stated, if they cannot get a good deal they will not bulb the GE and instead use him for a wonder.
It's the comparative technological difference that matters when we invade, not necessarily how fast we get to the invasion. I don't see this trade doing anything to benefit our advantage.
I have no idea with bluffing like we will trade with them, or stalling them by talking about trading but making conditions we know they won't agree to -- like brokering the tech, for instance. But please don't do this tech deal.
Trystero
Deity
Looks good, AlphaShard.
I think our chances for a religion seem pretty high.
Any disagreements with researching Feudalism next, as Irgy proposed?
I'm thinking we should move Pallas 1NW onto that hill to have a look around, then have her follow the coast south to scout since our borders will pop next turn. Or is that premature?
I think we are now all in agreement on this point. The marginal benefit of Machinery for us is far outweighed by the boost they'd get. Even if they did become hostile, at this point the worst they could do is pillage the clams at Arcturus.
My request for what they wanted for Machinery was as much a stalling tactic as anything else. Now I'll let Lord Parkin let them down gently.
I think our chances for a religion seem pretty high. Any disagreements with researching Feudalism next, as Irgy proposed?
I'm thinking we should move Pallas 1NW onto that hill to have a look around, then have her follow the coast south to scout since our borders will pop next turn. Or is that premature?
I think we are now all in agreement on this point. The marginal benefit of Machinery for us is far outweighed by the boost they'd get. Even if they did become hostile, at this point the worst they could do is pillage the clams at Arcturus.
My request for what they wanted for Machinery was as much a stalling tactic as anything else. Now I'll let Lord Parkin let them down gently.
pindicator
Emperor
Okay, I'm glad to see that I just mis-read the thread by coming late to the party I got a little frightened by the message that it may have been in earnest.
I got a little frightened by the message that it may have been in earnest.
azzaman333
meh
We should just go straight to CS, IMO. Macemen won't be far behind.
Although I suggested it myself in the firstplace I'm now 50-50 on the Fuedalism idea, if Mavericks are going to just build the Pyramids instead of bulbing machinery. In that case we're not worried about crossbows. Fuedalism for longbows was a good counter to crossbows (which is one thing macemen most certainly are not). The Beaurocracy bonus of Civil Service will be much more useful than the pre-requisite bonus from doing them in the 'correct' order.
Longbows are at least a very good unit to have though regardless of what else happens, they're great defenders right up until rifles or cannons.
Longbows are at least a very good unit to have though regardless of what else happens, they're great defenders right up until rifles or cannons.
