Turn Discussion Thread

[Irgy]

Well, I played around, and my conclusion is
* Work the floodplain
* Switch to silk with 2 turns to growth (still 2 turns to growth)
* Work silk and gold at size 2 (missed only one turn of improved gold)
* Switch back to floodplains (or not) once the workboat is out.

Basically what Trystero said in the first place. The silk is just a sneaky optimisation that gets the workboat out one turn earlier without delaying the growth to 2.

The plains hill faster workboat option does come out slightly ahead in hammers+food, but loses a ton of beakers (~30) to do it, because the fish and gold are improved the same turn and it's still 4 turns before the city can grow.

Either way a chop is of no particular help, the workboat is always done before the chop finishes. I'd prefer to be cottaging the flood plains instead. But that's a whole other story.

On other matters;
* I still think we're more likely to find other teams sooner going anti-clockwise (i.e. north for the moment) than the other way. Sure, we lost half a turn compared to the optimal move, but it's done now, no sense wasting many more by heading the wrong direction entirely just to justify it. I say the 'wrong' direction because there's still a good chance that the land we can see to the east meets up with the land we can see southwest, and we could spend a long time exploring a big bay to the south while never getting very far from where we started.
* When I talk about the health cap, I realise we still gain from growing through it, and that the happiness cap is more restrictive, all I'm saying is that we don't get as much out of it as it may first appear.

 

[Irgy]

Losing food isn't much of a penalty. Sure, it's not ideal, but it doesn't prevent the city from getting bigger unless we're low on surplus food in the first place, in which case we're not going to be doing much growing anyway.

That's exactly it though. We're already at that point in Sirius. With the scientists and no lighthouse we have no surplus food at all from population 6. Later when we have a lighthouse and we're working cottages not scientists we'll grow, but that gives us plenty of time to get alphabet and find a trading partner first.

... By the time we've teched Monarchy we could either trade it for Math (and aqueducts)...

Or we could trade maths for some part of Monarchy. My point is that we're more likely to find a team with pre-requisites for Monarchy than a team with Math.

 

[azzaman333]

If the teams have similar starts, they're not going to be going down the Monarchy path either. We could conceivably be in a very good position to get the Oracle with some smart chopping in city #2.

Also, we'll be building a Lighthouse in Sirius, and once we have the academy we can work cottages instead of running Scientists. That's 6 surplus, allowing up to 6 more cottages to be worked (if my maths is right).

Monarchy is a safer bet than Alphabet.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?

Nah, if we were going to go anti-clockwise we're 1.5 turns behind with the current Work Boat position. Better to just keep going clockwise and accept the 0.5 turn missed.

If the teams have similar starts, they're not going to be going down the Monarchy path either. We could conceivably be in a very good position to get the Oracle with some smart chopping in city #2.

True, actually. We can be 100% sure that no-one is able to build the Oracle until after at least 1 religion is founded, since that's a prerequisite for Priesthood. So as things stand at the moment, with no religions founded (just checked), we can be 100% sure that no-one will be able to even start on the Oracle for several turns yet. Thus, it's possible we could still have a shot at it.

 

[pindicator]

True, actually. We can be 100% sure that no-one is able to build the Oracle until after at least 1 religion is founded, since that's a prerequisite for Priesthood. So as things stand at the moment, with no religions founded (just checked), we can be 100% sure that no-one will be able to even start on the Oracle for several turns yet. Thus, it's possible we could still have a shot at it.

That's a very good point! Perhaps some test games into how long it takes to get the Oracle would be prudent.

 

[Trystero]

Irgy;

Re: your micro plan.

How much gold do we get from putting the research slider to 0% at turn 38? I've never tried binary research, so I've never tried to micro it. Also, don't we lose research that we can't readily make up in the short term?

That's a very good point! Perhaps some test games into how long it takes to get the Oracle would be prudent.

That would be easy enough with the Monarchy test games (Since that's the only scenario in which we'd bother with Priesthood). My worry about the Oracle is that it might distract us from more important things we could be building, and that we would want to build it in Canopus (it would contaminate the Great Scientist points we'd be accumulating in Sirius), which would be pretty poorly developed at that point.

Edit: I ran a quick test on building The Oracle in Canopus, in a game otherwise identical to my latest Monarchy test game with the same tech order, so I didn't prioritize PH over Sailing. It differed in that after the WB, I put 1 turn into another WB before PH was researched. (Also, I did not revolt to Slavery/HR. I think we could revolt and whip, but it wouldn't change the completion date, but I'd have to double check). I then switched to building the Oracle working a FP + PFH until the Gold was mined and then switching to FP + Gold Hill, and FP + Gold Hill + PFH at size 3. I chopped 3 forests (two Silk tiles in the BFC + a PFH) and finished The Oracle on turn 60. None of our research or builds in Sirius was altered in the test. This wasn't optimized very much, so we could do better, but this gives you a rough idea of the time frame.

Edit2: I double checked: revolting to Slavery/HR did not change the end date if we whip at earliest possible opportunity, so might as well revolt. Again, it was just a quick run through.

 

[azzaman333]

We'd probably want to pump out a few workers and pre-chop/chop the Oracle if no one has founded a religion by the time we finish Mysticism.

Nah, if we were going to go anti-clockwise we're 1.5 turns behind with the current Work Boat position. Better to just keep going clockwise and accept the 0.5 turn missed.

No, I mean continue anti-clockwise around the island to our east, where we don't miss even half a turn.

 

[Lord Parkin]

No, I mean continue anti-clockwise around the island to our east, where we don't miss even half a turn.

That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

 

[hell_hound]

That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

I don't understand why though, it makes absolutely no difference which way we travel around the landmass, as long as we do not hit ice either way will require the same amount of time to circumnavigate in either direction.

 

[azzaman333]

That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

There's no evidence to suggest that ther is a single star-shaped continent.

 

[champinoman]

I don't understand why though, it makes absolutely no difference which way we travel around the landmass, as long as we do not hit ice either way will require the same amount of time to circumnavigate in either direction.

LP's idea is that if the island is a star shape like we speculate it results in less chance of meeting someone if we head south. Heading north opens up the map for a greater chance of contact.

Now its been a while since I drew a lovely picture so here is one. See how far from our island we get if we head south and it turns out to be a star?

Spoiler :

However azzaman's rebutal:

There's no evidence to suggest that ther is a single star-shaped continent.

is correct as well. So, which way to guess? Who bloody knows...

 

[azzaman333]

Even if it does turn out to be star shaped, I'd rather find out about the coastline that's closest to us. We'll meet the other teams when we meet them.

 

[AlphaShard]

It doesn't matter which way that boat goes. So long as it is revaling tiles it's doing it's job. Also I think we are not on a star shape continent. The land that I do see seems to be turning away at the south bit.

 

[Irgy]

Revealing tiles is not its job, contacting other civs is. That was the reason we rushed it out in the first place. What use is revealing a bunch of coast tiles? Much better to prioritise sailing and send a galley and a warrior over to see the other landmass. The point is that contacting another civ earlier gives us a huge headstart in the diplomacy game over teams which remain isolated while everyone else is making deals. Not to mention tech trading. We'll waste all the effort we put into getting a tech-rate lead if the other teams catch up via trading while we don't.

The land doesn't need to globally be a star shape to be locally a dead end to the south. The 'evidence' for it being star shaped (at least locally) is the other land we've deduced is to the southeast. In fact that's the only reason we think we're in the north, and that heading NE is going around the outside of the available land in the first place.

 

[Irgy]

How much gold do we get from putting the research slider to 0% at turn 38? I've never tried binary research, so I've never tried to micro it. Also, don't we lose research that we can't readily make up in the short term?

I'll have to check on the gold amount, it was about twenty-something though.

It does lose research in the short term, but we get more back in the long term. After writing we're not waiting on any techs to be done at a particular time (assuming we want two warriors for the galley, which I think is worthwhile). And it's not that 'long term', we're at -2gpt, so it's only a dozen or so turns until we've burned through the gold from each turn at 0, after which we're ahead of where we would have been otherwise.

My inclination would actually be to drop it to zero for the whole time between getting writing and finishing the library.

 

[azzaman333]

Revealing tiles is not its job, contacting other civs is. That was the reason we rushed it out in the first place. What use is revealing a bunch of coast tiles? Much better to prioritise sailing and send a galley and a warrior over to see the other landmass. The point is that contacting another civ earlier gives us a huge headstart in the diplomacy game over teams which remain isolated while everyone else is making deals. Not to mention tech trading. We'll waste all the effort we put into getting a tech-rate lead if the other teams catch up via trading while we don't.

The land doesn't need to globally be a star shape to be locally a dead end to the south. The 'evidence' for it being star shaped (at least locally) is the other land we've deduced is to the southeast. In fact that's the only reason we think we're in the north, and that heading NE is going around the outside of the available land in the first place.

We're wasting turns if we go north now. I absolutely hate wasting turns.

And as far as we know, the path north could be a dead end instead. We've already started on the path south, we might as well go with it.

 

[grant2004]

I'm all for continuing north as the original plan. I think it's highly likely that there is some sort of connection between the two sections of land we've sighted, like champinoman's picture. Contacting teams should be our first priority with the workboats, because there's still a good amount of time before we send settlers to the island. Whatever coastal tiles we miss out on by going north, they will be revealed soon by exploring workboat #2, or by our galley with warriors.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Revealing tiles is not its job, contacting other civs is. That was the reason we rushed it out in the first place. What use is revealing a bunch of coast tiles? Much better to prioritise sailing and send a galley and a warrior over to see the other landmass. The point is that contacting another civ earlier gives us a huge headstart in the diplomacy game over teams which remain isolated while everyone else is making deals. Not to mention tech trading. We'll waste all the effort we put into getting a tech-rate lead if the other teams catch up via trading while we don't.

I was going to write something like this, but you already summed up all my points perfectly.

The land doesn't need to globally be a star shape to be locally a dead end to the south. The 'evidence' for it being star shaped (at least locally) is the other land we've deduced is to the southeast. In fact that's the only reason we think we're in the north, and that heading NE is going around the outside of the available land in the first place.

I'm working from the assumption that the map is symmetrical, in which case if we reflect the land we can see around 6 times, we'll get a star shaped continent with 6 islands with team starts between the prongs. Now it could be that instead we have a series of islands between the team starts, as Azzaman suggests. But my reasoning is thus:

Heading NE: Goes around the land to the east and gets us closer to meeting another team for both cases (a star shaped continent or a series of islands).
Heading SE: Only gets us closer to meeting another civ assuming it's an island to our east; if it's a single star-shaped continent then it results in a dead end and wasted time.

My reasoning is thus: why risk hitting a dead end by heading SE, when we can eliminate that risk completely (short of an iceberg) by heading NE? NE practically guarantees getting us closer to meeting another civ; SE risks running into a dead end. Why take an unnecessary risk?

My inclination would actually be to drop it to zero for the whole time between getting writing and finishing the library.

But that would delay us 1-2 turns on the near-future techs like Meditation and Priesthood, potentially costing us a religion and/or the Oracle (if we decide to go for it).

 

[Lord Parkin]

We're wasting turns if we go north now. I absolutely hate wasting turns.

We're wasting more turns if SE turns out to be a dead end, which there's a 50/50 chance (I would argue greater) that it will be. Just because we made one poor movement choice doesn't mean that we should make several more bad moves in sequence.

And as far as we know, the path north could be a dead end instead. We've already started on the path south, we might as well go with it.

There is no possible way that the path north could be a dead end unless there's an iceberg blocking us. And if you're going to argue for that, then it's equally likely there could be an iceberg to the south-east.

Aside from an iceberg, it's simply impossible for the path north to be a dead end, unless the land loops around to the north, then west, and then connects up again to the land we can see to our south. In which case that would put us on an island in the middle of a lake. There is simply no other way in which heading north could possibly lead to a dead end. And given that we can't see any hints of land at all to our north or west, I'm betting that we're not in the middle of a lake, and thus that we will not hit a dead end if we head north-east.

 

[caveman1917]

I named the WB Voyager after it was suggested seems like a good name to me.

I think it's a great idea using space probes, however i think in all fairness it should be named Sputnik, the soviets were first up there after all Perhaps following this list?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_artificial_satellites_and_space_probes

And perhaps for galleys with warriors, using the names of human spaceflights? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights