Turn Discussion: Turns 1-19

[remake20]

Maybe we have iron and someone else has horses. I wish we had horses though .

 

[mariogreymist]

If we find no other resources in the bfc, I will be fine with the capital. (assuming others' are similarly resourced)

 

[Sommerswerd]

I moved my response here to keep the threads on-topic...

SH would be great for the free monuments - but what happens later in the game when we get Astro? At that point do we lose the "free" monuments, and if so do we also lose the +1 happiness?

IIRC once we get Astro, we lose the +1 from monuments but not the +1 . If we build SH (stonehenge) we lose both with Astro. I don't think that +1 is enough to influence the decision either way, because by the time we get Astro, we will have much better ways of getting (theatres, libraries etc.). Anyway, Here is a recent discussion on Stonehenge in the Strategy and Tips Forum (some familiar AMAZONs participated in the discussion).

The monuments are never "free". Every single one is paid for. Sometimes quite dearly.

Anyway IMO we should attempt stonehenge, but not to the point of selling our soul in the attempt. Myst after AH/mining/bw and possibly wheel makes sense anyway ---> if we don't build SH, we still need monuments, so it's really an issue of if the wonder is available by then.

I agree about the opportunity costs, and I would rather get SH (hopefully chopped in our 2nd city) than have to build monuments in every city, instead of granaries, etc.

As far as when to tech Myst... After teching AH, there are going to be 9 turns where having another worker tech wont do us any good (1 turn left for worker, then 8 turns for 2 pastures). Not to mention that the capital will not have grown large enough to use the mines yet. I suggest that we use that time to squeeze 1 tech in between AH and mining... Either Myst (9 turns) or Fishing (6 turns). Either way, our worker can farm the square N of the Capital while waiting the 1 turn(with fishing) or 3 turns(with mining). That way our worker is not idling, we are not wasting our agriculture tech, and we give ourselves some options (SH or a scout workboat) after our warrior/settler is built.

 

[SilentConfusion]

As far as when to tech Myst... After teching AH, there are going to be 9 turns where having another worker tech wont do us any good (1 turn left for worker, then 8 turns for 2 pastures). Not to mention that the capital will not have grown large enough to use the mines yet. I suggest that we use that time to squeeze 1 tech in between AH and mining... Either Myst (9 turns) or Fishing (6 turns). Either way, our worker can farm the square N of the Capital while waiting the 1 turn(with fishing) or 3 turns(with mining). That way our worker is not idling, we are not wasting our agriculture tech, and we give ourselves some options (SH or a scout workboat) after our warrior/settler is built.

If we don't miss a turn of mining a silver mine then I'd be ok with this in principle. I'll want to map it out more, but I like the idea as it is not obvious. We only need to have the silver mine up by the time we'd be able to work it. But another thing to consider is that by inserting a tech we delay BW. If we wouldn't want to chop or whip that early then that could be ok, but we have to think about that too.

I'm leaning towards chopping with our worker after the sheep and mines are up. We can really accelerate our warrior and Settler production to get that second city out earlier, which in turn would give us more time to chop SH in our second city. For this we'd want BW in by a certain time. If SH goes in our second city it just has to be done by the time we settle. If our second city is not good for chopping SH in then we can think about it in the capitol.

 

[damnrunner]

Id rather not miss a single turn of working a silver mine.

And would getting myst early really help with building SH that much faster. Earlier the discussion was of pre chopping SH - I think that would make more sense. But then we woudl tech to bronze 1st and prechop while teching Myst.

I am also still not totally sold on SH. If it does not mess up the +1 happy from monuments later in the game then that is a plus. But is the investment of hammers better spent on knocking out a faster settler or 2?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Id rather not miss a single turn of working a silver mine.

And would getting myst early really help with building SH that much faster. Earlier the discussion was of pre chopping SH - I think that would make more sense. But then we woudl tech to bronze 1st and prechop while teching Myst.

I am also still not totally sold on SH. If it does not mess up the +1 happy from monuments later in the game then that is a plus. But is the investment of hammers better spent on knocking out a faster settler or 2?

The more we scout, the better. SH has very low opportunity cost if you have the ability to expand to 12+ cities without a fight, and an enormous cost if room is tight.

 

[damnrunner]

The more we scout, the better. SH has very low opportunity cost if you have the ability to expand to 12+ cities without a fight, and an enormous cost if room is tight.

I would lean in favor of it, but would not want to base a strategy on it. Worst option would be going all out for it and then missing it - which would be very easy if an opponent had nearby stone or a copper mine.

I think we still tech AH, mine, bronze 1st before Myst.

Question would be if we also tech wheel or even Pottery 1st as well. Another question is if we build a settler before SH.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The more we scout, the better.

I agree, so we need a scout workboat, and that is another reason I favor getting Fishing right after AH.

Fishing takes 6 turns. The first turn of teching fishing we will still be building our 1st Worker (b/c worker takes 12 turns AH takes 11). Next 4 turns we will finish the 1st pasture and spend 4 turns building a warrior. Last turn of teching Fishing will be our first turn of improving the 2nd pasture. 3 more turns to finish pasture and 3 turns of teching mining, and finishing warrior. Next turn, Pasture finishes, we start a wb, and do 4th turn of teching Mining. Next turn worker moves towards the silver, 5th turn of teching Mining. Next turn worker moves 1 tile north of capital and starts a farm, 6th turn teching mining. Next turn is last teching Mining, and worker moves to silver. Next turn, mining is done, start BW, start mining silver.

If this interests anyone I will try to test when the wb will finish and when we can start a settler, but I think that a wb is the superior method of scouting, because
1. No danger from barbs/animals
2. So no need to heal when attacked
2. 2 moves every turn
3. No obstacles like mountains/ lakes to go around.

You need to create a new map to test this because the other test map does not have an ocean. I attached the map I used.

 

[damnrunner]

I completly disagree with Sommers on delaying mining.

Every turn mining is delayed is a significant waste of commerce. The idea of building a farm before a mine seems a big waste. We will get a good amount of food from the pastures - what we will need are mines and cottages. An additional farm will be marginally useful.

Yes we need a WB to find other civs - but not right away. We need a few warriors asap to scout out new city sites and start fogbusting.

I would rather get myst for SH or pottery for a granary before teching fishing for WBs. The team will need to make a decision about SH at some point but if we go for it - it should come right after Bronze. I consider Pottery a priority as having a granary will allow for a very efficient conversion of food into hammers via whipping. And with our higher happy cap we will be able to do more whipping than other civs.

 

[remake20]

Mining can NOT go anywhere after our 2nd tech IMO, it is just a waste of science that we NEED.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Mining can NOT go anywhere after our 2nd tech IMO, it is just a waste of science that we NEED.

I'm not saying I'd advocate teching Fishing second, although I'd consider it. More likely I'd go AH>Mining>BW, but don't underestimate the science that is gained by meeting someone early. Early meetings set the tone of the whole game and determine who is in a tech alliance with whom. If we are focusing on expansion to take advantage of the ability to gain techs through an alliance, we should not neglect an opportunity to meet our opponents early and form alliances. A similar strategy significantly helped team Cav in the last MTDG who met team Kaz early with a workboat and the alliance gained many beakers for team Cav while they focused on expanding.

I might not agree with fishing second, but I definitely do agree that an early workboat is as important as scouting warriors and maybe a little more valuable.

I might go AH>Mining>(Wheel)>BW>Fish>Myst. Obviously wheel if we have horse, otherwise we can wait.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Its all about opportunity cost. For us to gain one advantage we have to sacrifice another. We can't have our cake and eat it too. I agree that if we were playing against cheiftain level AIs we would tech AH>Mining>Wheel>BW>Fish>Myst.

1. AH for Sheep pasture/ find potential horse
2. Mining for silver mines
3. Wheel for Immortals
4. BW for chops, potential Copper
5. Fish for scout wb and potential early contact
6. Myst for Stonehenge

We cant get all of these things at the time when we want them... We want sheep ASAP, silver ASAP, Stonhenge ASAP, contact with other civs ASAP. We have to put one priority ahead of the other. Making contact is more important than ANYTHING else. Really, it is more important than sheep pastures, but AH is also needed to find horse so we are teching AH first. If we delay early contact by even 1 more turn than that, we will pay dearly for it for the rest of the game.

For example, if the wb meets 2 other civs, we may be able to make a deal with them whereby they agree to let us get SH. We may be able to get NAPs and fixed borders in place, so that we dont need monuments or Immortals as urgently. If we don't get any of these things, and three civs are racing for SH by the time we meet them, then it may be too late. That is what opportunity cost is all about.

@ damnrunner - the mine is finished 1 turn later if we tech fishing so we lose 5 in excahange for a better chance to be the first team to meet an ally. 5 to meet an ally first seems like a good trade to me.

And the suggestion was having the worker spend a turn building a farm instead of just idling, but I guess the worker could just go straight to the hill and idle for one turn instead. I agree that finishing a farm would be of marginal benefit, that is why we would not finish it, but instead move to the hill the turn before mining becomes available.

 

[damnrunner]

Making 1st contact is important - but we need the infrastructure to build a WB. That is why pastures and mining are needed 1st in my view.

I also would disagree that 1st contact is the most important part of the game. With very early contact teams can make plans of an alliance but have no real mechanism to actually form one. We won't be able to trade tech or trade resources. We could make plans to do so - but we might get a better offer from a 2nd team before anything is locked down. I also think we will be in a much better position to negotiate if we have a good infrastructure. Anyhow I guess we will end up having a poll on this once AH is close to being finished.

If the mine is only delayed by 1 turn that is not so bad - but I am not even sure if we will be ready to build a WB at that point. I would rather pop out 1-3 warriors 1st to scout out a 2nd city site and begin fog busting.

 

[remake20]

Well after I read that I say swap fish and BW.

 

[damnrunner]

Well after I read that I say swap fish and BW.

My understanding is that Sommers wants to swap fish for mining - not BW. Swapping for BW does make more sense - but I'd rather get BW 1st so we can begin slaving and chopping. That will probably get us 2 WBs faster

 

[damnrunner]

So our scout found more sheep! I am still in favor of settling in place but does anyone disagree.

I prefer in place as we get the benefit of being a coastal city.

... If only immortals could ride sheep...

 

[remake20]

That looks like a good city spot for #2 (on the third sheep), but a little close. Man so many techs to choose from. I agree that we need to find opponents, but IMO getting our economy going is just as important as meeting other teams. I agree that meeting teams should be hi on this list, but I change back to AH>Mining>BW>fish

 

[remake20]

Oh and SiP.

 

[remake20]

Here is my tile examination:

For our next scout move I say 2 NE. But would be okay with NW>N

 

[remake20]

I think sommerwerd can SiP, tech AH first, and eng turn, but I will submit a poll as to where fishing will go.