Turn Discussion

[Indiansmoke]

Memphus I believe in rules and sportsmanship. If we all agree to not use a cheesy tactic then I am fairly sure my team will not use, that is what I mean by behave...

I am not talking about punishment...for me exposing a team using something we have specifically banned..the embarashment would be punishment enough.

Now in your logic you want enforcement and penalties...I am not going there.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I have no problem with teams hiding what they're teching, or at least trying to.

Do it at you're own risk, and don't expect the admins to let you reload if you screw it up. Especially as it doesn't give any tangible advantage.

another ninja

Help, please I can handle that many ninjas at once

 

[Memphus]

Memphus I believe in rules and sportsmanship. If we all agree to not use a cheesy tactic then I am fairly sure my team will not use, that is what I mean by behave....

Again that depends on wheather you call it cheesy or you call it maximization of micromanagment understanding.

On could call altering your city builds every turn from to to pick up 1 extra over the 2 turns because of rounding errors with the forge a "cheesy" tactic.

One could call running 100% and then 100% to maximize your a "cheesy" tactic.

A New patch just came out...it didn't adress these issues. Other "exploits" in MM from ealier versions of have been patched out (chop switching, slavery , and the list goes on)

So again to call it cheesy isn't really fair.

I am not talking about punishment...for me exposing a team using something we have specifically banned..the embarashment would be punishment enough..

In My logic I don't want it to be an issue, becuase I don't think it is cheesy. But if it is deemed to be as such, and the rule is there, then would it be? All it would do then is tell you that the information on what that team is teching is useless. Which is what should be assumed now....as for the embarasement, is it a factor if the team though what they were doing wasn't wrong?
Thus enter the punishment part...but as you mentioned no point touching on that.

 

[dutchfire]

another ninja

Help, please I can handle that many ninjas at once

Your chariots couldn't

 

[Indiansmoke]

Again that depends on wheather you call it cheesy or you call it maximization of micromanagment understanding.

On could call altering your city builds every turn from to to pick up 1 extra over the 2 turns because of rounding errors with the forge a "cheesy" tactic.

One could call running 100% and then 100% to maximize your a "cheesy" tactic.

A New patch just came out...it didn't adress these issues. Other "exploits" in MM from ealier versions of have been patched out (chop switching, slavery , and the list goes on)

So again to call it cheesy isn't really fair.

We asked a question about a specific expoit of the turn based pitboss......and would like to hear the opinion of other teams as well whether they consider it a cheessy tactic. Sancta obviously don't, and we do...

 

[Indiansmoke]

Your chariots couldn't

another ninja

they keep popping like their techs...out of nowhere

 

[azzaman333]

We have a new breeding program.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'd like to hear from the other 3 teams on this.

I have no problem with the tactic, but if it were banned, the Ninjas would certainly abide by the rules.

 

[dutchfire]

another ninja

they keep popping like their techs...out of nowhere

Well, see, we don't have anything else to do with our time, since the other teams are playing so slowly.

 

[Kaleb]

Well I think it's obvious from the discussion so far that SANCTA see this as a legit tactic (and are using it now if point be known...). But like I said, one man's cheese is another man's sauce - so let's hear more opinions.

The reasons given for how you can't tell whether a team got a tech through themselves or trade don't really stand up. Trades show up when it's not your turn and gifts/demands give relationship bonusses/penalties. But like I said, the key is not about policing or enforcement - I'm sure we're all sportsmanlike enough to just abide by whatever we agree on.

If we agree that this is a legit tactic then when it comes time that another civ can see our tech priority through esp then we'll just adopt the same tactic. It's not hard to do.

On the other hand I would just prefer we agreed not to use this tactic. Sure - you can't always get an exact picture of when a tech might be researched but knowing what is being researched can be quite useful.

 

[Ronnie1]

I prefer sauce!

 

[Niklas]

This was something Team Cavaleiros discussed early on as well, and the conclusion was exactly the same as what Kaleb says they reached in Kazakhstan. This is an artifact of the sequential pitboss nature of the game, which doesn't show up in simultaneous or PBEM modes and thus definitely falls under the category of "exploit". The same could not be said for any of the examples listed by Memphus, which are all part of how the core game works.

I personally agree completely with Kaleb. I would prefer this not to be used at all - if you don't want your research to be known, use the intended way, counter-espionage! Policing really isn't a problem.

 

[Memphus]

...(and are using it now if point be known...). ...

Are we? Interesting, your points versus us wouldn't be high enough for you to currently see our research...so wouldn't in be in vain?

The same could not be said for any of the examples listed by Memphus, which are all part of how the core game works.

Noted. I will give you a very strong one then:

In this game tech trades happen at any point in time. (and have for every team) So do we disallow that? Meaning you can only make an offer (and receive) the tech on your turn? That is how it works in Pbem. Because right now due to roster order and turn roll there are clear cut advantages to trading for certain teams. Edit: Specifically Kaz got an extra turn of Bureaucracy.

I personally agree completely with Kaleb. I would prefer this not to be used at all - if you don't want your research to be known, use the intended way, counter-espionage!

Currently this is counter espionage.

Policing really isn't a problem.

If there is no penalty thier could be? How fast would everyone drive if there was no speeding ticket but still a posted limit?

 

[Ronnie1]

I like cheese also....and CHEESE SAUCE is totally awesome!

Because of ALL the factors that affect how this MTDG is played, I personally think that this has little/no or at the very least, VERY LITTLE IMPACT on how the game is unfolding. If you want more EP, bump your EP slider to 100% for a few turns and get the info you want.

 

[Memphus]

Because of ALL the factors that affect how this MTDG is played, I personally think that this has little/no or at the very least, VERY LITTLE IMPACT on how the game is unfolding. If you want more EP, bump your EP slider to 100% for a few turns and get the info you want.

Ronnie that isn't the point at all. spending in this discussion is mute. If you change your techs then it doesn't matter if you can see what the other team is researching or not, because it is invalid data.

The discussion is wheather or not teams should be allowed to change thier research after they end turn.

Side note spoiler

Spoiler :

Pbem is the odd one out. Simultaneous turns, Online MP, all other games if you are fast enough you can disguise your tech. So theoretically Pbem should be changed that the game doesn't auto pause after ending turn!

 

[Sullla]

Wow, talk about an issue blowing up in the span of a few hours...

Alright, it's obvious that the posters in this thread are simply taking sides based on the in-game alliances. That takes us precisely nowhere, as individual perspectives are hopelessly colored by your team perspectives. Some of the comments in this thread are also getting out of hand - watch it, folks. Outright taunting of other members will not be tolerated by the mods.

I don't really care at this stage about "who did what" either; I can read all five forums, and all of your teams are guilty of lying to someone else about something. So let's ditch the meaningless finger-pointing over who has the moral high ground, and simply determine whether or not to legislate a rule addition.

The specific complaint raised is that the Sequential turn option allows teams to change research and builds immediately after ending their turn, then swap them back to their "real" choices in time for the production/research cycle, allowing them to hide their selections from the Espionage efforts of rival teams. Now there are two ways of dealing with this:

- We write a rule outlawing the above practice. The teams agree not to do these research/production swaps any more.
- We leave things alone. Micromanagement and deception are fair game.

The biggest problem with the first issue is that it's extremely difficult, verging on impossible, to police. Short of the moderators logging into the game every turn (which is not going to happen, FYI) the teams will essentially have to abide by a gentleman's agreement not to abuse this feature. That's just the way things are due to the Sequential format.

Regardless, the only way I see to settle the situation is put this issue to a team vote. If the first option is chosen, all teams will agree to abide by the spirit of the rule despite the difficulty in enforcing it. That's a bad solution, but again, little else we can do.

So please discuss this issue in your team forum and respond as to whether your team would like a formal rule banning post-turn swaps of the above nature.

 

[Memphus]

So please discuss this issue in your team forum and respond as to whether your team would like a formal rule banning post-turn swaps of the above nature.

SANTCA would like to hear if other teams want a rule proposed (and the wording) however ultimately we feel a game admin should make the call to bring the rule into effect. as voting once relationships are dedcided in game makes it tough, unless the vote is unanimous.

As a side note does anyone know of other Demo Games where such a rule is in place? (could help with verbage and enforcement)

Or if such a game exists are other teams doing it?

 

[Kaleb]

The specific complaint raised is that the Sequential turn option allows teams to change research and builds immediately after ending their turn, then swap them back to their "real" choices in time for the production/research cycle, allowing them to hide their selections from the Espionage efforts of rival teams. Now there are two ways of dealing with this:

- We write a rule outlawing the above practice. The teams agree not to do these research/production swaps any more.
- We leave things alone. Micromanagement and deception are fair game.

Thanks Sulla. I wasn't wanting to start anything resembling a flame war - I just wanted to get a consensus on how we want to play and all play the same way.

If we have a majority of teams in favour of hiding real tech goals then we'll abide by that rule and play the same way (if we need to). I think it would be a shame though as we should be using the real in-game espionage mechanics to their fullest.

 

[Memphus]

Thanks Sulla. I wasn't wanting to start anything resembling a flame war - I just wanted to get a consensus on how we want to play and all play the same way..

Your post was very diplomatic and to the point. I would like to appologize for a couple of my team mates though that did start to a little . Hopefully going forward we can continue to discuss and debate in a positive manner.

 

[Kaleb]

SANTCA would like to hear if other teams want a rule proposed (and the wording) however ultimately we feel a game admin should make the call to bring the rule into effect. as voting once relationships are dedcided in game makes it tough, unless the vote is unanimous.

As a side note does anyone know of other Demo Games going on with sequential turns?
Do they have a rule written for this? (could help with verbage and enforcement)

Or if such a game exists are other teams doing it?

I was thinking of raising this a long time ago, before it became an issue - but I honestly didn't think anyone would be using these tactics...

We did a little bit of 'shuffling' early in the game for a couple of turns but gave up on it after an internal discussion.

It's an issue here because this is the first team demo game in BTS I believe (ie with espionage). So we'll probably be setting a precedent for future games.