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Turn/timeline changes

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by AbsintheRed, May 1, 2017.

  1. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Ooops :lol:
    3 years for each turn is what I meant.
     
  2. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Sorry, was confusing with SOI where there is an option to play on the Epic timeline. It does make tough conquest goals like the Ayubbids much easier, but then the rest of the game drags out for aaaaages ;)

    Ultimately we can debate this forever, but like with the 1st French UHV I think we will just need to test it out. Like I said above, I think with changes to the starting army and UU of Arabia and some adjustments it will be doable by 750AD. Having just tested on the current SVN (1.5), I was able to capture almost all the UHV territories, including Sicily, by 780AD simply by giving myself Engineering, Farriers, adding 4 Ghazis to the starting stack and switching to militarism and tribal law on turn 1. Just focusing on building Ghazis was enough, although I didn't build a settler for Crete.

    The only problem was stability - I lost Sicily pretty much as soon as I completed the UHV. That was partly due to -16 for foreign religions, partly due to it currently being foreign territory, and partly due to hordes of Beduins pillaging my core (I was playing on Emperor, so brought that on myself a bit! ;)). So I think 750AD might be feasible with good play, good rolls and adjustments to the UU and starting army once we move to 3 years per turn, provided Arab stability can be supported somehow.
     
  3. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, that's my first impression with it. If it's balanced to one speed, it will be much easier/harder on the other one.
    I don't see any solutions for this, not without adding different starting stacks too, or anything similarly huge balancing change.

    The point is different speed levels have to be balanced individually (for almost all nations), at least if we want to keep the challenge roughly at the same level (between the different speed levels) for a given civ.
    Thus multiple speed levels is not something I even consider for the mod. I'm sure it's fun in many aspects, but I would rather aim for a better overall balance.
    Ahh... we can't let The Turk reach his goal! :scared:
    Quick, erase the post before he finds out!!
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
    gilgames likes this.
  4. Bobby Martnen

    Bobby Martnen Antifeminist

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    How about
    4 years per turn from 476 to 500 - 6 turns
    3 years per turn from 500 to 800 - 100 turns
    2 years per turn from 800 to 1700 - 450 turns
    1 year per turn from 1700 to 1800 -100 turns

    A total of 656 turns - there's no reason it has to be a multiple of 10, and the Middle Ages really began in 476.
     
  5. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    The game begins in 500, not 476. Which IMO is already too early, I don't see why this mod is so long (time wise), given its already lack of depth. Going back even further seems like a waste of time and resources.

    @AbsintheRed, let's just try out the 750AD deadline, with my most territorial goals of Ifriqiya, Egypt, Syria, Arabia, Cilicia and Malatya (eastern anatolia). With the added dates, I think it should be very doable. And if you boost stability as I wrote to you on another thread, this shouldn't be a hard UHV to complete. What will be harder will be to finish the techs AND hold together your Empire. But I'll help you make that latter UHV fun ;)
     
  6. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Really? :dubious:
    I'm glad you are enthusiastic, but that's some strange wording there I think :D
     
  7. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    "Fun" is strange wording for you? Boy, we have a lot of work to do then! :thumbsup:

    But seriously, I was talking about adding rebellions (barbarians), and perhaps having them dependent on what your current situation is as the Arabs.
     
  8. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Sure, but how do you want to help me with implementing those?
    Sending me a beer to keep me motivated while I'm coding it? :lol:
     
  9. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Well barbarians are done through python, no? It's literally just copy and paste job on the barbarian.py (or whatever it's called) file.

    Needless to say, I just meant in coming up with a list of revolts/incursions and locations of said events, in other words: research.
     
  10. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    Absolutely agree - AFAIK most mods don't try to balance the difficulties or speeds outside Monarch / Normal. They just balance it on one and let other people use the others as they like. In general a longer time scale makes the game easier, so I think they just use other speeds as a way for people to complete the UHVs they can't do at normal speed.

    Sorry man, I just report the truth. No fake news from me ;)

    Also my experience is only from a single test - we would need to test it more times to see how it balances overall. And if it's too easy to reach a smaller goal by 750AD we could even look at going to 969AD and including all of the Magreb, right into Morocco, to really up the challenge for the Arab player.
     
  11. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    You could even have 658 turns then, going with 3 years per turn right from 476.
    But no, I don't plan to change the starting date.
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, I actually even quoted your post, so there is no chance you take it seriously :D
    You never know, joking around really is hard in writing.
    EDIT: (see all my other failed attempts for it in the past few days :lol:)
    EDIT2: (altough I even got likes for some of those posts, so maybe not all of them were entirely failed)
     
  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Yeah, no worries, I appreciate each and every feedback I get.
    Even the not so positive ones, actually those are the best if they remain constructive.
     
  14. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    You really have to fix that, dude. :p

    A question: would you consider making the speed of the game Epic if a majority of players wanted it?

    Also, I would like to state my opinion that the game should begin post-Charlemagne. What's the point of starting so early if you're not going to represent an empire that covered half of Europe?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2017
  15. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    While I know that DoC is great, scale is a huge problem for me. I need to have much more room and detail for my civ/map/mod.

    Performance issues came up even with increasing turn number to 600. I'm not sure how far can I go without reaching MAFs and unbearable turn times in the late-game.
    Also what do you consider epic? It will be already around 2 years/turn on average.

    Well, the first French UHV is already Charlemagne's Empire.
    With the additional turns in the first half of the game, we can add a couple more provinces to it and more correctly represent it's full extent.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  16. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    I only care if it plays like vanilla Epic. Years per turn aren't important.

    Also, are you sure the slowdown in the lategame isn't caused by something else? It's pretty bad for me and I have a superb computer. How big is the map?
     
  17. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    What do you mean bad? post 1700 i have ~5-7 min/turn. that's bad....
     
  18. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    :eek2:

    I don't think even gigantic maps would do that. Maybe it's because the trade route system becomes exponentially more resource intensive with growing map sizes?
     
  19. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Uhh... It's around 10-15 seconds to me. While I still consider that much, it's more than bearable I guess.
    What do you do while you wait for the AI turn? How much is it for you in the midgame?

    Map size in RFCE is 73*100.
    The answer is definitely not one function or system.
    Even in vanilla Civ IV, the increasing number of active units and cities (with all the related city data and the various buildings) is the main cause for the slowdown.
    Pathfinding and various distance calculations can also be a significant contributor - let it be used for units or in the trade route system (?) for example - but I would argue that even with these taken into account the size of the map is almost irrelevant compared to the number of active units/cities.
    Of course in most cases if the map is bigger there is more room for units/cities, so you are right if you meant that.

    Anyway, on top of the vanilla stuff RFC-type mods operate with a huge number of python functions/systems which are even more sensible to number of cities.
    And civs too... here the number of active civs is a significant factor too, contrary to BtS it's constantly increasing here till the late midgame.
    Most of the basic RFC/RFCE subsystems has at least a couple functions which have (and need to have) all kinds of checks for all active civs and cities.

    So in RFCE I think the most significant factor is number of cities, with number of units being second (but mostly because it's already significant in BtS, we doesn't have that much additional checks for units)
    The good news is that I don't think either of those would be increased by much with a couple new civs, also number of active civs are kinda limited anyway, so that shouldn't be a big issue either.
    That's why I'm pretty confident in adding 4 new civs at once.
    Hopefully not even the added turns will result in a too big slowdown (and obviously that can only appear in the last turns), but I can't really know the extent until we try it.
     
  20. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    It's the same for me. I may be able to bear it, but the only mod I've seen match that is Caveman2Cosmos.

    Heh, you are going to need viewports if you keep going in this direction. Lots of people don't have up-to-date computers.
     

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