Unbelievable battles

Anyone ever heard of Hone Heke? He was a Maori chief who instigated the Flagstaff War against the British in New Zealand, owing to their dishonouring of the Treaty of Waitangi. This war saw a number of unbelievable battles.

In short, Hone Heke led what was ostensibly a Stone Age military force and repeatedly defeated the Brits, who were the most advanced Industrial Age military of their time. Not bad eh!?

To expand upon this and give an idea of the difference in fire-power, at the battle of Omdurman, none of the attacking native Sudanese warriors managed to come closer than three hundred meters from the lines of the combined Anglo-Egyptian army. That's a very one-sided engagement.

The incident of h-t-h that did take place at Omdurman was a cavalry engagement, and then the Europeans pretty much got their ass handed to them. Winston Churchill was in it, and later claimed that having a heavy Mauser pistol and a full clip was what saved his life then; again superior fire power. Anything else involving horses and cold steel the Sudanese had mastered to perfection.

So whenever the European colonial troops found themselves in hand-to-hand combat, it could be concluded they had gone about things in the wrong way.
First use of the Maxim Gun in battle wasn't it?
 
Making Verdun an "average" battle

BTW, my answer was not directed at you, but at carmen150
Yeah, I knew it wasn't.:)

And while Verdun stood at 700/day, the 900/day was for all fronts, all engagements, all through the war.
So while Verdun was rolling along, soldiers were also dying in other places, probably pushing the French KIA rate well above 900 for that period. The average figure for 1914 and 1915 was well over 1000/day I reckon.
 
First use of the Maxim Gun in battle wasn't it?[Omdurman]
According to Wikipedia, it seems it was first used in the 1893-94 Matebele war; 50 British troopers holding off 5000 Matabele warriors with four Maxims - classic colonial warfare.

And already Henry Morton Stanley was given a prototype as a publicity stunt for the British 1886-1890 Emin Pasha Relief Expedition.

It doesn't seem it was used though. Stanley rather relied on the rate of fire of Remington rifles with a revolver mechanism. Still, by that time the natives were on to the importance of modern fire arms, and Stanly cautiously skirted the territory of king Kabarega of Bunyoro, with his 1500 men equiped with modern breech-loading Jocelyn and Snider rifles, the Snider being the main British army rifle at the time.
 
The Battle of Midway is incredible. One squadron if SBD dive bombers took out three main IJN carriers in a matter of miuntes. Then more bombers went back and took out a fourth carrier. You want to talk about so few doing so much for so many...
 
^^ Just looking at the stuff on the right-hand side is impressive.
 
According to Wikipedia, it seems it was first used in the 1893-94 Matebele war; 50 British troopers holding off 5000 Matabele warriors with four Maxims - classic colonial warfare.
Dammit, I knew that! :wallbash:

I believe the demonstration of its devastating effect in this war and at the Battle of Omdurman prompted the German military to 'tool up' with them heavily. The British got their comeuppance, along with other Allied forces, facing similarly bloody scenes at The Somme as a result of German 'tooling up' with early machine guns.

As an aside, and knowing you have an interest in the character/persona, the British opposition at the Battle of Omdurman was led by a fellow who proclaimed himself to be "The Mahdi" (Muhammad Ahmad, Abdullah al-Taashi).
And already Henry Morton Stanley was given a prototype as a publicity stunt for the British 1886-1890 Emin Pasha Relief Expedition.

It doesn't seem it was used though. Stanley rather relied on the rate of fire of Remington rifles with a revolver mechanism. Still, by that time the natives were on to the importance of modern fire arms, and Stanly cautiously skirted the territory of king Kabarega of Bunyoro, with his 1500 men equiped with modern breech-loading Jocelyn and Snider rifles, the Snider being the main British army rifle at the time.
Nice added value there :goodjob:
 
The Battle of Midway is incredible. One squadron if SBD dive bombers took out three main IJN carriers in a matter of miuntes. Then more bombers went back and took out a fourth carrier. You want to talk about so few doing so much for so many...

Three squadrons, two from Enterprise and one from Yorktown. What is incredible is the timing. 1) The planes were from different task groups, approaching from different directions, neither of which was toward where the Japanese "should" have been, based on the preflight briefings. 2) Both groups arrived at high altitude with in a 30 minute, or so, window where all the air cover was down at sea level, due to additional uncoordinated attacks by torpedo planes, many of which were from the Hornet, and almost all of which were shot down. 3) Also in this window, the Japanese were attempting a collosal stupidity: rearming the planes without safety precations. Due to this, and the amount of air combat, the flight decks were littered with flammables and ordinance. 4) The two groups of planes were completely unaware of the presense of each other. None the less, they selected targets and executed complete attacks in only 6 minutes total, mortally wounding the flagship and two other carriers. The fuel, bombs and torpedoes loose on the deck had catastrophic consiquences for damage control, which was not up to American standards in any event. The fleet flagship, Akagi, was essentially sunk with only 2 bombs.

The Midway result is almost impossible to game up. Too many events conspired in too short a time.

J
 
Midway is a great example of where luck and carelessness collide to create an unforseen result. The Japanese had not put their submarines in the right places before the battle, were careless and sloppy in their rearming as mentioned above, "accidently" sunk the Yorktown twice (if you read the Japanese combat reports, they send strikes from the Hiryu, I believe, against the Yorktown, count it as sunk, but in fact the Yorktown repairs its boilers, moves, and then the Hiryu launches another strike against the crippled ship...)

And the timing of the American squadrons...the torpedo planes were obliterated, if I recall, and the first two dive bomber squadrons were chewed up. But the Japanese interceptors were just overwhelmed when that third group showed up from a different direction, and then within minutes stuff got a lot uglier for the Japanese.

It's a memorable battle. Made all the more entertaining when you read about the US carrier Midway launched late in the war. The Americans immortalized that battle pretty quickly!
 
Midway is a great example of where luck and carelessness collide to create an unforseen result. The Japanese had not put their submarines in the right places before the battle, were careless and sloppy in their rearming as mentioned above, "accidently" sunk the Yorktown twice (if you read the Japanese combat reports, they send strikes from the Hiryu, I believe, against the Yorktown, count it as sunk, but in fact the Yorktown repairs its boilers, moves, and then the Hiryu launches another strike against the crippled ship...)

And the timing of the American squadrons...the torpedo planes were obliterated, if I recall, and the first two dive bomber squadrons were chewed up. But the Japanese interceptors were just overwhelmed when that third group showed up from a different direction, and then within minutes stuff got a lot uglier for the Japanese.

It's a memorable battle. Made all the more entertaining when you read about the US carrier Midway launched late in the war. The Americans immortalized that battle pretty quickly!
A couple of details off here, though nothing substantive. Perhaps too much is made of the lack of reconnaissance, air or submarine. given the size of the playing field, the Japanese coverage was understandably thin. Given the horrific result, from the Japanese perspective, many fingers have been pointed this direction, with some justification. Perhaps too much. Heavier coverage would have been very difficult to obtain, and the Americans knew enough of the battle plan to make some judgements about how to avoid being seen. Suffice to say that many a winning Admiral has put out less effort to find the enemy.

Also, there were event tending to focus attention elsewhere. The attacks by dive bombers, which were beaten off, came from the island, not from the carriers. In addition torpedo planes and B-15 heavy bombers also attacked the group. Much of this was going on while half the Japanese planes were bombing the island. The succession of Midway based attacks was crucial, in that it convinced the Japanese command to rearm their reserve planes for ground attack. The plan was to rearm the returning wave of planes for ship to ship.

As ambushes go, this was one of the most successful in history. The rearming was well underway when the Japanese finally spotted the American carriers. This put the Japanese in a time bind. They have empty planes returning, and half their attack strength inappropriately armed. The decision to make an emergency reconversion to AP bombs and torpedoes is understandable, given the situation. Obviously, the consequences were grave.

Also, it was not a third group showing up from a new direction. It was two uncoordinated groups, neither arriving from the bearing to the island or to the known carrier group, that is the real stroke of luck. One group was following a destroyer which had been detached to prosecute antisubmarine bombing. The other had no excuse at all for finding the enemy. Indeed, many other planes never did, including all the dive bombers from the Hornet, even though the Hornet's torpedo planes had been a major part of the earlier attack. Add that to the clear airspace at high altitude and the unsecured fuel and munitions, and the improbability reaches staggering proportions.

J
 
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the biggest reason the dive bombers got through. Japanese Aircraft carriers at the time were not equiped with Radar. The fighter cover for the aircraft carriers engaged low-level torpedo bombers first, and then didn't anticipate another wave of dive bombers, and couldn't climb to attack altitude.
Being equiped with Radar could have radically altered the effect of the battle.
 
I'm not particularly patriotic but have to at least point people toward this battle:
Battle of Raate-Road
The important lesson is in the link about Battle of Suomussalmi which has small analysis and displays the facts why small force could cause such havoc to much bigger one in these particular circumstances.
 
I'm not particularly patriotic but have to at least point people toward this battle:
Battle of Raate-Road
The important lesson is in the link about Battle of Suomussalmi which has small analysis and displays the facts why small force could cause such havoc to much bigger one in these particular circumstances.

"Badly-equipped Finland captured 43 tanks, 71 field and anti-air guns, 29 anti-tank guns, armored cars, armored tractors, 260 trucks, 1,170 horses, infantry weapons, ammunition and medical equipment as war booty from the Soviets.

The Soviet commander, Vinogradov, and two of his chief officers survived the battle. When they reached the Soviet lines four days later they were court martialed, found guilty and sentenced to death; the executions were carried on immediately. The charge was losing 55 field kitchens to the enemy."

Okay, that you lost your entire division, and all those tanks and guns. THAT we can live with! But the field kitchens! You should have given your life for the field kitchens!
 
That's a big what-if.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the biggest reason the dive bombers got through. Japanese Aircraft carriers at the time were not equiped with Radar. The fighter cover for the aircraft carriers engaged low-level torpedo bombers first, and then didn't anticipate another wave of dive bombers, and couldn't climb to attack altitude.
Being equiped with Radar could have radically altered the effect of the battle.
 
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the biggest reason the dive bombers got through. Japanese Aircraft carriers at the time were not equiped with Radar. The fighter cover for the aircraft carriers engaged low-level torpedo bombers first, and then didn't anticipate another wave of dive bombers, and couldn't climb to attack altitude.
Being equiped with Radar could have radically altered the effect of the battle.
Radar has often been listed as the #1 Allied advantage of the war. Air born radar especially. Consider, for example, the effect on German submarines in 1943 to the end of the war. The Allies were sending ships, with planes, out looking for subs, "Hunter-Killer" groups. The concept of combined arms ttakes another step forward.

However, to say the Japanese lacked it at Midway would be redundant. It is generally understood that they never had it.
That's a big what-if.
Very big.

J
 
Siege of Candia

A siege of a fortress on Crete lasting 21 years. Its unbelievable because of how long the siege lasted.
 
However, to say the Japanese lacked it at Midway would be redundant. It is generally understood that they never had it.
This is true, but my point is that Midway is an example of how the allied advantage was immense with radar at a tactical level, as well as a strategic level. What I mean to point out by bringing it up is that it wasn't so much luck that the American pilots got through, but through technical advantage.The Japanese Fighters were working at visual range and therefor had no time to climb to attack altitude. Had the same maneuver been pulled on an American Aircraft Carrier by Japanese planes, the dive bombers would have posed no serious threat. So it was not just lucky positioning that won the day.
 
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