Understanding Philosophical

[namliaM]

.... 40.5 raw beakers ....

...somehow, I think I'm leaving out a building or two because I clearly remember the number of raw beakers being 50-ish, but that's at least a basic analysis.

Well if you take into account a slider at 80%, 50 commerce...

Offcourse the settled GS will also give you a hammer, now try and figure that into this equation??

 

[riapopia]

Can you assume you will get Oxford in your early-game planning? Oxford is a great wonder, not a national wonder right?

It seems like that is a big assumption for me though I must admit I usually do get it. Perhaps the AI doesn't prioritize it as much as humans do.

Thanks for the guidance on the 40.5 base beaker rate. I'm going to play a Philo leader now and try to optimize my use of GP. I do like the idea of having 2 GP farms in the early game!

 

[Verge]

Can you assume you will get Oxford in your early-game planning? Oxford is a great wonder, not a national wonder right?

Oxford is a national wonder.

 

[namliaM]

2 GP farms

I think the trick of Philo leaders is to run as many specialists as possible, if at all possible include the Pyramids for Representation so you get 3 extra beakers.

 

[paulthebug]

I usually use Philo leader for a space race or a domination win. I think I have only try cultural win once all these years. Can anyone point me to a strategy article utilizing philo for a cultural win? Gandhi would a be obvious choice utilizing his combo traits. But I am thinking of something independent of religion. Has anyone try it?

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I'm actually quite astounded at how amzing Philo is and how I've been ignoring it for so long! I'm playing as Elizabeth right now and it's quite an amazing talent, especially when paired with Pacifism. I usually end up running somewhat Hybrid economies so Elizabeth is right up my ally, and luckily I started with a Gold Mine in London's BFC. That, and paired with an early scientist specialist let me get a tech lead very, very quickly. It's a great trait and Liz may become my favourite leader.

 

[Maben]

I'm actually quite astounded at how amzing Philo is and how I've been ignoring it for so long! I'm playing as Elizabeth right now and it's quite an amazing talent, especially when paired with Pacifism. I usually end up running somewhat Hybrid economies so Elizabeth is right up my ally, and luckily I started with a Gold Mine in London's BFC. That, and paired with an early scientist specialist let me get a tech lead very, very quickly. It's a great trait and Liz may become my favourite leader.

I like Elizabeth a lot, played my last few games with her. For a GP farm aiming to get scientists, should I avoid getting any wonders that give GP points that aren't scientists in a GP farm city and just run scientist specialists for awhile? Also, do I avoid building too many wonders in my capital to avoid diluting my GP farms effect, or can they both be successful farms? I love matching Elizabeth with Pacifism and using the Parthenon as well. Should I build The Parthenon in a production city like my capital or should I try to use my GP city to get it? A lot of times my GP farm has too few production to build it very fast even with marble.

 

[vicawoo]

Unfortunately, this only true for the first 10 GP. After 10 GP the cost increases by 200 for each GP, so the 11th costs 1200 GPPs and the 12th costs 1400 and so on. And after 20 GP the costs increase by 300 so the 21st GP costs 3300 GPPs to produce. Your formula needs to be modified above 10 GP.

This means that producing:
10 GP costs 5500 GPPs in total
20 GP costs 26500 GPPs in total
30 GP costs 73000 GPp in total

So the first 10 GP cost 550 GPPs on average. The next 10 GP costs an average of 2100 GPPs. The 10 GP from the 20th to 30th cost an average of 4650 GPPs. It takes nearly as many GPPs to produce a single GP in the 20's as it does to produce the first 10 GP.

These numbers explain why a single GP farm for a non Philosophical player can appear to compete with a SE. It is easy for a single GP farm (driven by food) with the NE and a few specialists to produce the first 10 or so GP. For example if it runs 6 scientists with the Caste System it will produce (6 x 3 + 1) * (1 + 100%) = 38 GPPs / turn. Running a GP farm like that for 200 turns, as many CEs would, gives 7600 GPPs which is enough to produce 11 GPs and some to spare. A limitation on this method is that the Caste System is a poor civic for a CE when Emancipation becomes available as it only benefits one city while many new cottages benefit from Emancipation. Adding the Great Library can add another 16 GPPs /turn and is not reliant on the Caste System. By the time the Caste System is no longer needed several buildings can be installed such as markets and jails that allow a mixture of specialists. A CE can do a lot with a single GP farm merely because the costs are low and then escalate so rapidly.

The Philosophical trait is like have a NE in all your cities right from the start. That frees the SE player from relying on a single GP Farm and he can use several cities to contribute to the total of GPs. Using the +100% bonus from a GA and switching to Pacifism for the period of the GA can produce several extra GPs by boosting GPP production. I often don't build the NE until later in the game in a good city with several captured wonders. The NE is nothing like as important for a Philosophical leader.

Given a long time, that makes it O(n^3), so it would be cube root of (1.5)=1.14. Given a shorter period of time (you're near the same decile of GP), that's still O(n^2).

 

[lilnev]

For a GP farm aiming to get scientists, should I avoid getting any wonders that give GP points that aren't scientists in a GP farm city and just run scientist specialists for awhile? Also, do I avoid building too many wonders in my capital to avoid diluting my GP farms effect, or can they both be successful farms? I love matching Elizabeth with Pacifism and using the Parthenon as well. Should I build The Parthenon in a production city like my capital or should I try to use my GP city to get it?

If you build Wonders of the non-preferred type, you can expect slightly fewer GPs of the preferred type. Adding 10% pollution, for example, means you'll get about 5% more total GPs (because as noted above it's second-order, or third in the very long run), but 10% of your GPs will be the non-preferred type, so a 5% reduction of the preferred type.

I practice I don't really care about an occasional non-preferred GP except for Great Artists. They're good for starting a Golden Age, and, um ... well if you're going for cultural, they're good then, too. But overall their value is vastly less than any other type. So keep the Parthenon out of your GP farm if at all possible.

How to use GPs? It depends, of course, but most often for me:
GE -- early on grab the Pyramids. If you think you're in danger of losing the Great Library, rush that. Otherwise, save him for Mining Inc. It's often hard to secure a GE "on demand" later on. And I mostly play for late game domination wins, which makes Mining Inc ridiculously good. If you don't expect to pursue late wars, then settling him is fine.
GM -- early, settle him. You'd like to land him in your eventual Wall St city, but sometimes the extra food is more important, if it'll let your HE city work an extra mine for example. Late game, trade missions become strong once they're up over 1500-2000 gold or so. Run the slider at 100% for a very long time, or mass upgrade some CR3 maces to rifles.
GA -- golden age. But try to avoid them if you can.
GP -- mostly settle. I don't normally have a religion that I'm pushing, unless I've captured a holy city. It should be pretty clear when shrining is better vs. settling.
GSci -- the first two 'bulb Philosophy and build an Academy, often in the capital to benefit from Bureaucracy. Then often one 'bulb for Education, and either settle or build more Academies with the rest. Representation obviously favors settling, but I favor cottage economies, so I've probably got at least 3 or 4 cities that want Academies reasonably soon.
GSpy -- usually infiltrate and steal techs. I haven't yet tried a dedicated spy economy, though I keep meaning too....

peace,
lilnev

 

[madscientist]

Lot of info on Philosophical here. I'll post some of my ideas, sorry to repeat

1) My experience is that you get 30-50% more GPs with philosophical depending how much food is in the GP farm.
2) You get GPs FASTER. As we know the earlier you get GPs the more help you. You get shrines faster, you can bulb philosphy earlier (and found Taoism), faster cash for trade route.
3) Beeline education is important to get yourself fast/early universities as well as oxford which is a national wonder. This is the latest fast trait specific building (aside from organized factories), but the one where you can have that building alot longer than the AI. Only a few AIs will prioritize education.
4) Helps with corps. Much easier to leverage the GP needed after teching corporation with philosophical.
5) Very powerful SE economy IF you can nail the pyramids for early representation.

Downside

1) Weak if you have poor food resources and cannot afford the specialists to punch out GPs quickly.
2) Takes longer than any other trait to start getting benefits
3) GPs power weakens as the game progresses aside from golden ages.

 

[needsomesleep]

I was playing last night with a philo leader and found great people popping up left and right, now that I set up the city correctly. I was trying to keep an engineer as a specialist in my main GP farm, so every time my city generated a GP, I would ad a wonder to the front of my build queue, then wait one turn to get a turn of production, and then have the great engineer complete it. I built the Haga Sophia, Notre Dame, and the Statue of Liberty this way. Not only did I get the wonder's benefit, but I got the extra GP/turn benefits to add to my generation of more great people. I think I was producing about 50 GP points per turn. In my capital I Generated a great profit and built the Temple of Solomon in my GP farm, great for yet more GP points and the income since I spread Judiasim like crazy a short while before that. I like being able to rush wonders like that, without having to kill my citizens or chop my forests, and to use early great Profits to discover a religion or two.

 

[riapopia]

So I played a new Monarch game as Alexander to try out Philosophical taking advantage of the good suggestions I read here. This played out *AMAZINGLY*.

Combination of Philo, Stonehenge, early Pyramids, Representation, many settled GP specialists in my capital, and Beauracracy led to a commerce orgy in my capital.

I almost didn't need any other cities as my capital probably contributed 85% of my commerce if you count some bulbed techs as well.

I will never doubt the power of Philo again.