Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
Damn, I've already used this discussion Civ IV on another board...
Understanding Power: An open discussion of immortal strategy
- Thread starter Jorunkun
- Start date
Damn, I've already used this discussion Civ IV on another board...
I am playing my first Immortal game after a long time playing Emperor. Usualy playing continents, st. map, st. settings , epic.
I think I am winning this one being number one in tech and land. Conquered 3 AI's and ready to take on my 'friends' the Zulu. The other continent just converted to my religion (they didn't found any religions, hehe). I must admit I did have a very good start, but hey I am just starting!
My experience:
Emperor tactics still valid, just needed to be executed more accurate. No time for mistakes!
The AI expands faster.
You need a early resource, because barbs will kill you.
I can't do without early war. 3 city's is possible, but then what...
The AI builds more units and barb city's are better defended, you actualy need an army...
They outtech you very fast and the MOST IMPORTANT difference I noticed, is they realy bend you over in trade. They don't feel ashame to offer fishing for COL AND ask for some gold.. So trading becomes even more important (they outtech you), but is more difficult!
They seem to tech in phases (as someone stated before). You can catch up or they will catch up. I was doing great and founded Liberalism first easily, but not much later they all caught up (I guess from trading).
I did have the luck facing a less advanced (at least in the beginning) other continent, but I don't what to do if they were more advanced... Continents can be hard.
My guess is Immortal can be done just like Emperor, you just need to get used to the faster pace. You do need to play more efficient and more aggressive so it seems. Having a crappy start seems impossible though. At least for me.
I think I am winning this one being number one in tech and land. Conquered 3 AI's and ready to take on my 'friends' the Zulu. The other continent just converted to my religion (they didn't found any religions, hehe). I must admit I did have a very good start, but hey I am just starting!
My experience:
Emperor tactics still valid, just needed to be executed more accurate. No time for mistakes!
The AI expands faster.
You need a early resource, because barbs will kill you.
I can't do without early war. 3 city's is possible, but then what...
The AI builds more units and barb city's are better defended, you actualy need an army...
They outtech you very fast and the MOST IMPORTANT difference I noticed, is they realy bend you over in trade. They don't feel ashame to offer fishing for COL AND ask for some gold.. So trading becomes even more important (they outtech you), but is more difficult!
They seem to tech in phases (as someone stated before). You can catch up or they will catch up. I was doing great and founded Liberalism first easily, but not much later they all caught up (I guess from trading).
I did have the luck facing a less advanced (at least in the beginning) other continent, but I don't what to do if they were more advanced... Continents can be hard.
My guess is Immortal can be done just like Emperor, you just need to get used to the faster pace. You do need to play more efficient and more aggressive so it seems. Having a crappy start seems impossible though. At least for me.
acidsatyr said:
True, but I just don't think normal speed is very realistic speed. But considering the upgrade bonus the AI receives makes slower speed much easier.
It would be more logical though, if normal would be quick, epic normal and marathon epic or just slow.
Chillaxation
Warlord
Multi homines boni sunt sed di**** quod "boni" non verbum est. Heu miser sum!
I'm just starting to get my feet wet with losses on Emperor level, so I can't really contribute, but I'm learning a lot from reading your posts. Just wanted to say thanks.
If you don't mind, though, I'd to settle the whole boni vs bonuses issue once and for all. Take it from a classicist, the "correct" plural of bonus is bonuses.
In Latin, bonus is not a noun, it's the singular male nominative form of an adjective. If it were correctly made into a noun, it would be bonum and the plural would be bona. So. . . although the English word "bonus" *is* derived from the Latin, it has never been correct according to Latin rules of grammar. It is therefore liberated from following Latin rules in its plural form.
But, really - most "official" rules of English grammar, spelling, and punctuation, are entirely artificial and can be reliably dated to some very intelligent snobs in 18th century London. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you use bonuses or boni, because we all know exactly what you mean. In fact, it's just this sort of error (also probably made in London) which led to bonus becoming a word in the first place. Therefore, I'm all in favor of making boni the plural of bonus. Who knows, maybe three centuries from now CivFanatics will be listed as a reference in the OED's etymology for "boni". And wouldn't that be cool?
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
If you don't mind, though, I'd to settle the whole boni vs bonuses issue once and for all. Take it from a classicist, the "correct" plural of bonus is bonuses.
In Latin, bonus is not a noun, it's the singular male nominative form of an adjective. If it were correctly made into a noun, it would be bonum and the plural would be bona. So. . . although the English word "bonus" *is* derived from the Latin, it has never been correct according to Latin rules of grammar. It is therefore liberated from following Latin rules in its plural form.
But, really - most "official" rules of English grammar, spelling, and punctuation, are entirely artificial and can be reliably dated to some very intelligent snobs in 18th century London. Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you use bonuses or boni, because we all know exactly what you mean. In fact, it's just this sort of error (also probably made in London) which led to bonus becoming a word in the first place. Therefore, I'm all in favor of making boni the plural of bonus. Who knows, maybe three centuries from now CivFanatics will be listed as a reference in the OED's etymology for "boni". And wouldn't that be cool?
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
Phrederick
Warlord
When attacking from the renaissance onwards, I usually declare war but don't invade. I let their military enter my land, and pick off units without defensive terrain bonuses, then only invade once their army has been decimated. Aggression becomes even more important, and razing cities becomes vital. I've learned to become accustomed to almost always being one of the lowest on the power graph, and being able to beat civs with much higher power than mine.
Also, think carefully before popping goodie huts. You get a LOT of hostile results.
Also, think carefully before popping goodie huts. You get a LOT of hostile results.
podraza
Warlord
Is this thread dead? Where I am I supposed to go now for the latest and greatest in Immortal strategy?
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
We need people to keep the discussion going. I'm trying to exploit these tips in Noble so that I understand them better...
podraza
Warlord
I am only starting on emperor, and getting killed by barbarians. I can't contribute. But we need a way to get these immortal guys talking again.
I guess it can't hurt to throw something out there.
I don't understand how it is possible to build both an early wonder and a military sufficient for play at this level. You need to either be attacking the AI quickly, or if you're like me, just trying to survive barbarians. The capital is really the only city that can churn out units at any decent pace in the beginning, so how can people possibly be building the pyramids or any such thing?
I guess it can't hurt to throw something out there.
I don't understand how it is possible to build both an early wonder and a military sufficient for play at this level. You need to either be attacking the AI quickly, or if you're like me, just trying to survive barbarians. The capital is really the only city that can churn out units at any decent pace in the beginning, so how can people possibly be building the pyramids or any such thing?
Immortal is still usually a struggle for me, but here's my thoughts:
I've actually never had much luck hard-building the Pyramids. Either I get beat to them by a few turns, or I get them but my empire is hideously underdeveloped. In Warlords, it's much more feasible to build the Great Wall and use the GE for the Pyramids. It's also possible to run Oracle->Metal Casting, get a forge up quickly and run an engineer until you pop a GE. Both of those work far better with a Philosophical leader, especially on higher levels where the AI will build the Pyramids much sooner. And of course the easiest way is to wait until they're built in a faraway land, see who adopts Representation, and go warmongering.
Wonders I build with some regularity: Stonehenge just doesn't take that make hammers, if you want it. Chop a few trees and you're there. The Oracle, again not that many hammers. The main issue is getting the pre-req techs so you can get started fairly promptly. Great Library. After Alphabet, Literature is a fairly high priority so I can get this. On Immortal, I do sometimes get beat to these. Or sometimes I simply don't have the time/space to even try.
I never build ToA or Parthenon, and only rarely the Great Lighthouse, Colossus, or Hanging Gardens. And then nothing until the Taj.
peace,
lilnev
I've actually never had much luck hard-building the Pyramids. Either I get beat to them by a few turns, or I get them but my empire is hideously underdeveloped. In Warlords, it's much more feasible to build the Great Wall and use the GE for the Pyramids. It's also possible to run Oracle->Metal Casting, get a forge up quickly and run an engineer until you pop a GE. Both of those work far better with a Philosophical leader, especially on higher levels where the AI will build the Pyramids much sooner. And of course the easiest way is to wait until they're built in a faraway land, see who adopts Representation, and go warmongering.
Wonders I build with some regularity: Stonehenge just doesn't take that make hammers, if you want it. Chop a few trees and you're there. The Oracle, again not that many hammers. The main issue is getting the pre-req techs so you can get started fairly promptly. Great Library. After Alphabet, Literature is a fairly high priority so I can get this. On Immortal, I do sometimes get beat to these. Or sometimes I simply don't have the time/space to even try.
I never build ToA or Parthenon, and only rarely the Great Lighthouse, Colossus, or Hanging Gardens. And then nothing until the Taj.
peace,
lilnev
I still build pyramids the normal way - you do have to sacrifice on the early expansion and military front going for Pyramid/oracle builds at this level if you want a good chance of getting them successfully. My reason for building pyramids the honest way is that going the GE route exposes you to being potentially beaten to two wonders rather than just one. Because military will be low the best defence against barbarians is picketing to clear the fog of war. The AI will probably encroach on your territory, but you can equalize in size later by conquering AI lands in the midgame.
I have my doubts on the viability of the GE of the Great Wall for the mids. In the games I have played I am happy if I can build the Great Wall before anyone does , but I didn't have a single opportunity to use this GE before the Mids already have been build. And this was most of the time on Emperor. The GE generation is just to slow, even with the help of a hired GS with the sideeffect of spoiling the pool of GE generation.
It seems you only have a chance being either industrious or philosphical, but even then... I must admit the Pyramids are great, but I have learned to live without them. If a AI got stone in it's range, you are doomed in the race anyway.
I am looking for other ways, e.g. combo's of wonders and strategy's to make a stronger game. The trade game of the Emperor's Challenge is a nice example, which seems to be a nice opening. In general Immortal is the same like Emperor just harder. I have fallen back to Emperor to test new strategy's. Will post if one works out in most of the times.
It seems you only have a chance being either industrious or philosphical, but even then... I must admit the Pyramids are great, but I have learned to live without them. If a AI got stone in it's range, you are doomed in the race anyway.
I am looking for other ways, e.g. combo's of wonders and strategy's to make a stronger game. The trade game of the Emperor's Challenge is a nice example, which seems to be a nice opening. In general Immortal is the same like Emperor just harder. I have fallen back to Emperor to test new strategy's. Will post if one works out in most of the times.
My take on it is that to build early wonders on Immortal you need to have either the industrious trait or the ressource for it, and a lots of forest to chop. With all three, your chances aren't so bad, with only one, it's a lucky shot.
The Pyramids, because of their high cost and rewards are probably the biggest gamble in the early game (I don't even count the CS slingshot as I have never got it to work on immortal) which is why I tend to not even try unless the stars align perfectly.
In fact, I find that in general traits and ressources are shaping my game more strongly on immortal. On emperor, my strategy was largely to avoid wonders and play a growth-centred, risk-averse game. Regardless of traits, I would try to get the earliest possible _conventional_ lead in food, gnp and tech and just leverage my strength for a slow but safe victory.
On most immortal games, you just don't get to this position by organic growth. As a result, I have become more conscious of (slightly more risky but manageable) opportunities provided by traits and ressources. This includes very early rushes triggered by aggressive and bronze/horse, strongly focusing on cash ressouces, rivers and coastal for financial and playing religious games if spiritual (thanks to Uberfish btw, who made me see the light in another thread). Also, I am much more aware of the other civs strengths and quirks and take these into account for my own strategy.
As a result, my games have become more varied, a tad more risky and whole lot more fun. And while I still don't win the majority of my immortal games, I can hold my ground in most of them, and win a few.
How is everybody else faring in their attempts to win on immortal?
PS: Not really related but ... have you guys seen Blakes "improved AI" mod over in the Apolyton strategy forum? Been playing with it for the past few days and it rocks. Check it out!
The Pyramids, because of their high cost and rewards are probably the biggest gamble in the early game (I don't even count the CS slingshot as I have never got it to work on immortal) which is why I tend to not even try unless the stars align perfectly.
In fact, I find that in general traits and ressources are shaping my game more strongly on immortal. On emperor, my strategy was largely to avoid wonders and play a growth-centred, risk-averse game. Regardless of traits, I would try to get the earliest possible _conventional_ lead in food, gnp and tech and just leverage my strength for a slow but safe victory.
On most immortal games, you just don't get to this position by organic growth. As a result, I have become more conscious of (slightly more risky but manageable) opportunities provided by traits and ressources. This includes very early rushes triggered by aggressive and bronze/horse, strongly focusing on cash ressouces, rivers and coastal for financial and playing religious games if spiritual (thanks to Uberfish btw, who made me see the light in another thread). Also, I am much more aware of the other civs strengths and quirks and take these into account for my own strategy.
As a result, my games have become more varied, a tad more risky and whole lot more fun. And while I still don't win the majority of my immortal games, I can hold my ground in most of them, and win a few.
How is everybody else faring in their attempts to win on immortal?
PS: Not really related but ... have you guys seen Blakes "improved AI" mod over in the Apolyton strategy forum? Been playing with it for the past few days and it rocks. Check it out!
aelf
Ashen One
I would like to begin taking a crack at Immortal soon, when this Emperor Challenge is done. The tips I've gleaned from here have given me an idea of what to expect and how to overcome potential difficulties. Thanks!
Well I am currently in the middle of my second attempt at immortal. First try was with Mongolians, I got control of my continent but was too far behind the other continent in tech to catch up (or else I played it poorly). Small map I believe, marathon speed.
This time I was the Romans, whom I'd never used before. Well let me tell you, that Praetorian is a powerful unit. I'll be honest and admit that I played a rocky, high water continent map in order to play to Praetorian strengths vs mounted units and it paid off big time. I took out the entire continent with no more than a dozen of them, the enemy units being primarily archers, chariots, and axemen. Barbarian was never much of a problem, I used extra units to keep the map clear and then wiped out any barb cities after I finished off Tokugawa and Saladin. I didn't get very much in tech trading, but I did get a little out of Saladin before wiping him out.
This game took two attempts and I think the problem I was making is clear now. In both I "started" after I had cleared my continent. In my first attempt, even though I got CoL right as I cleared the continent I didn't grow as much as I could have...I didn't position a city to take advantage of every clear bit of land available, mostly just sticking with what I had taken from opponents. By the time I contacted the Greeks (who cleared the French off their continent), I was behind in tech and even though slightly larger, I could never catch up and eventually the gap widened too much to keep playing.
My second time I went back to the cleared continent and instead of growing and aiming for astronomy, focused first on growth by building 2-3 extra settlers and getting courthouses built there asap. I'm also taking advantage of some hamlets/towns the AI civs left behind. This time I'm ahead in score and my tech is about even, the Greeks have more techs but I got liberalism and printing press for free. I should be able to build a better army this time and hopefully get some cash to upgrade my praets. We'll see though.
Anyway the moral of the story is I got stuck on immortal until I realized just wiping out your enemies wasn't enough, you have to expand quickly as soon as you can and you need to time it right to get CoL.
Oh yes also part of the reason I managed to get CoL was using scientists...my tech rate was 0% when I got it.
This time I was the Romans, whom I'd never used before. Well let me tell you, that Praetorian is a powerful unit. I'll be honest and admit that I played a rocky, high water continent map in order to play to Praetorian strengths vs mounted units and it paid off big time. I took out the entire continent with no more than a dozen of them, the enemy units being primarily archers, chariots, and axemen. Barbarian was never much of a problem, I used extra units to keep the map clear and then wiped out any barb cities after I finished off Tokugawa and Saladin. I didn't get very much in tech trading, but I did get a little out of Saladin before wiping him out.
This game took two attempts and I think the problem I was making is clear now. In both I "started" after I had cleared my continent. In my first attempt, even though I got CoL right as I cleared the continent I didn't grow as much as I could have...I didn't position a city to take advantage of every clear bit of land available, mostly just sticking with what I had taken from opponents. By the time I contacted the Greeks (who cleared the French off their continent), I was behind in tech and even though slightly larger, I could never catch up and eventually the gap widened too much to keep playing.
My second time I went back to the cleared continent and instead of growing and aiming for astronomy, focused first on growth by building 2-3 extra settlers and getting courthouses built there asap. I'm also taking advantage of some hamlets/towns the AI civs left behind. This time I'm ahead in score and my tech is about even, the Greeks have more techs but I got liberalism and printing press for free. I should be able to build a better army this time and hopefully get some cash to upgrade my praets. We'll see though.
Anyway the moral of the story is I got stuck on immortal until I realized just wiping out your enemies wasn't enough, you have to expand quickly as soon as you can and you need to time it right to get CoL.
Oh yes also part of the reason I managed to get CoL was using scientists...my tech rate was 0% when I got it.
Murky
Deity
If you are currently an Emperor player on standard maps then you could probably move to Immortal on a smaller map with a strong civ choice like Inca (vanilla) or Romans for the Praetorians. My first Immortal win was with HC on a duel map using the Quechua rush. Yes, it's cheesy but it works.
