Underwhelming Russia/Proposal fix

[4N4C0ND4]

Hi fellow civ'natics,

Been playing Russia last game, and I must say that I've been a bit disapointed.
Don't get me wrong, early hammers/extra ressources are great for a good start.
But what I don't get is why important strategy ressources such as coal/oil aren't also doubled?

The problem I face is that starting the renaissance, late medieval, good luck selling your extra horses/iron.

Add the fact that the kreepost is not thad great...

Feedbacks appreciated.

Regards,

4N4

 

[mclericp]

how about the fact that invading russia is PURE suicide in every game?
The only exception is when the huns spawn next to russia which then destroyed them all.

Dont underestimate russian AI.

Playing as russia however idk. I never played russia but in every single game with Russia in it, they have one of the top armies with loads of nukes.

 

[Sagax]

I think Coal and Oil aren't added for balance reasons, since both are key to some very powerful buildings and units (factories and battleships come to mind).

Once you can't sell your horses anymore, you use them. It's common knowledge that some civs excel at specific victory conditions, and Russia is good at "zerg domination". In this sense, giving double Coal and Oil on top of other strategic resources would be an overkill. Also, Russia can have nukes. A lot of nukes.

 

[redwings1340]

Russia isn't the best civ, but it does scale decently well with difficulty. The UU and UB are both underwhelming, and the UA is better when you can sell everything, and the AI has more gold to buy things on higher difficulties.

Russia though... yeah, probably lower tier in terms of civs. Doesn't mean they can't be good though. I'm not sure how they'd be if other strategic resources were doubled. I wouldn't object off the top of my head, but people more experienced with military than I am might.

 

[ferretbacon]

What happens with Russia if you take the Third Alternative tenet in the Autocracy tree? Do your Horse, Iron, and Uranium double again?

 

[Sagax]

Russia isn't the best civ, but it does scale decently well with difficulty. The UU and UB are both underwhelming, and the UA is better when you can sell everything, and the AI has more gold to buy things on higher difficulties.

Russia though... yeah, probably lower tier in terms of civs. Doesn't mean they can't be good though. I'm not sure how they'd be if other strategic resources were doubled. I wouldn't object off the top of my head, but people more experienced with military than I am might.

My main problem with Russia is that UA indeed seems a bit incomplete. You have all those strategic resources that you should eventually use instead of selling to other civs, but early on you have no gold to maintain an enormous army (at least till banking). And yeah, Krepost became meh when Shoshone were introduced.

What happens with Russia if you take the Third Alternative tenet in the Autocracy tree? Do your Horse, Iron, and Uranium double again?

IIRC yes. Same with Arabia.

 

[CraigMak]

Russia is an extremely strong civ, I would take them over 80% of the civs out there.

 

[Tabarnak]

I like their starting bias. Often lot of space to settle around.

 

[Dr. D]

For me, by the time coal and aluminum come along my economy is doing just fine... it's the early game where gold is more of a premium and that's where trading the iron and horses comes into play. I don't think I have otherwise traded coal or aluminum to other civs for gold so this aspect of Russia's UA has never been a problem for me.

 

[Calouste]

I'd like the Krepost to be a Wall replacement rather than a Barracks replacement. Barracks are not much use in most of your cities, Walls have more use and of course no maintenance.

 

[reddishrecue]

I used the cossacks once and they had a bonus attack against wounded units.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Russia seems worse than it is but that's probably down to it being vanilla and lackng uniqueness that came with later civs but I don't think it's that bad compared.

Venice/Portugal/Sweden are examples of civs that you must exploit. If you want to play them to their strengths, you have to go out of your way to start trade, find city-states and make friends. They are all strong when used well but you have to learn to play the game at a high level to appreciate their benefits.

With Russia, the Krepost is mediocre yes but also useful when you have many cities either because you are monopolising strategic resources or using resources to invade. The Cossack again isn't great but compared to a regular Cavalry, it's decent and especially compared to a Great Galleas/Hakkapeliitta, it's versatile. There's the added bonus that you can have twice as many of these.
The UA is most important becuase it is a passive benefit. You don't need cities to trade with or city-states to exploit. It's a solid, straightforward benefit that's easy to understand for new players or people with no interest in playing above Emporer. For experienced gamers, it's something that is easily exploited and used in conjunction with the other uniques.

Russia is at least above average and certainly one of the strongest civs from vanilla.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

Russia is an extremely strong civ, I would take them over 80% of the civs out there.

Why? Can you elaborate here?

I used the cossacks once and they had a bonus attack against wounded units.

That is their basic particularity IIRC.

I've double checked the krepost yesterday and UB is so sad. 25% discount on gold/culture tiles? it's hardly noticing...

Selling resources is great but linked on being friendly with your neighbour that have some gold.

 

[Autoclave]

I did once combine all the border expansion abilities with Russia, got Krepost, the pantheon and angkor wat. Focused on some culture. Well guess what, my border expansion was so damn extremely fast that I began to get denouncements from my neighbours because i was grabbing the land too fast hahaha

 

[shaglio]

Russia, with their x2 Iron and Horses UA, is great for that age-old tactic:

1) you trade your Iron and Horses to the AI
2) they build a bunch of resource dependent units while you stockpile the gold they’re giving you
3) they declare war on you (losing access to the resources)
4) you rush-buy a ton of resource dependent units (with the Iron and Horses that were refunded to you) to fight them off while they suffer a 50% combat penalty.

 

[cpm4001]

Oil isn't doubled for Russia because it is under Arabia's UA, and I think Coal is just too powerful (and comes in large enough "deposits" ordinarily).

But yes, Russia is a much stronger Civ than a lot of people think, just because of their doubled horse and iron resources (though Cossacks are very, very powerful too.)

 

[4N4C0ND4]

Oil isn't doubled for Russia because it is under Arabia's UA, and I think Coal is just too powerful (and comes in large enough "deposits" ordinarily).

But yes, Russia is a much stronger Civ than a lot of people think, just because of their doubled horse and iron resources (though Cossacks are very, very powerful too.)

Oh yeah, didn't think about the arabia UA, makes more sense now.

On an historical approach, Russia/USSR had quite a lot of coal & oil (on the black sea) so it won't feel weird if it was added.
Would have to think something different for arabia though (like working oil tiles gives huge gold gains?)

I'm close to getting cossacks, there are indeed very good and handy in the classic dynamite/cavalry combo.

 

[cpm4001]

Would have to think something different for arabia though (like working oil tiles gives huge gold gains?)

See: Bazaar
Maybe not huge gold gains, but ties in well with one of the 'themes' of the UA.

 

[4N4C0ND4]

See: Bazaar
Maybe not huge gold gains, but ties in well with one of the 'themes' of the UA.

Lol, I'm so smart that I anticipated their UB /slowpoke.
Well +2 is nice & themey, but nothing gamebreaking I'm afraid

 

[VicRatlhead5199]

Russia has a great UA, the only thing that makes it underwhelming is that nonstrategic units (archer line & Pikes) are currently better than the iron and horse units in many ways. Tech path, focus fire and cost mainly. Russia in Vanilla was what the Zulu are now, a massive strong infantry threat. Now that iron and horse are really only good for selling (at least until frigates) Russia has become "Arabia-lite" and is hardly the threat she used to be.

Cathy's UA doesn't need buffed, the strategic units need buffed. The fact that both strategic lines aren't even close to dominating their eras is the problem. Might as well not have strategic resources at all with the current state. Fix that and suddenly Russia will not be underwhelming in the least with no silly tweaks to the UA.