UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

Definatately need more spies to get caught up in tech.
Qin may also convert this turn back to conf and we may need to reconvert him.

As for tech stealing, I think we'll eventually be warring with Qin so it might make sense to steal a bunch of techs from him to avoid prematurely losing our relations with Khmer.

Roster:
Ungy: On deck
Rusten
Shuyhe
Pigswill
Mystyfly: just played
Morganknight: UP

Morganknight we haven't heard much from you--post a got it or I'll take the next set.
 
ungy said:
Definatately need more spies to get caught up in tech.
Yea, one tech per turnset won't cut it at this point and onwards, especially as we can't trade them around either.

ungy said:
As for tech stealing, I think we'll eventually be warring with Qin so it might make sense to steal a bunch of techs from him to avoid prematurely losing our relations with Khmer.
Agree.
 
We're going to annoy someone by stealing techs from them. However it is is likely to be stronger than us. Maybe Qin is best target at the moment, at least he'd have to ship units over to kill us (and he does have Rusten City!). Maybe think about triremes once we 'acquire' MC.
 
(and he does have Rusten City!).
Right!

Feelings aside, that city won't be as magnificent now that we're this far into the game, but it would still provide a great deal of commerce. It would totally kick ass 1000 BC though, the sugar will even give 3 commerce due to financial. I'm probably going to have to re-play this map in single player after we're done, just to get that city settled early on. :crazyeye:

This game sure started moving slow. Without counting I think we must've played something like 1 round in 6 days. :(
 
0>1000 AD: As per request, I examined our trade goods and potential partners and ended up trading Pigs, Wheat and Ivory to MM for Dye, Rice, Banana, Spices and 2 GPT. We traded Pigs to Ragnar for Cows. I also make plans to hook some more of our resources into our trade network by building roads.

1>1010 AD: SB demands 200 Gold. I refuse. Qin offers Metal Casting for CoL & 180 gold. He is of course denied. AP elections are held and per request, we vote for Sury. We steal Metal Casting from Qin. We whip Courthouses in Nottingham and Hastings.

2>1020 AD: Sury wins the AP election. We whip a courthouse in York.

3>1030 AD: Our spy is discovered in Hariharalata. Ragnar declares on MM. We hook another source of Corn into our trade network and I trade it to SB for 7GPT. This allows us to slide our esp. slider to 60%.

4>1040 AD: Sury offers us Calendar for CoL and 50 Gold. I refuse. We steal Construction from Qin. We hook in another source of Ivory and trade it to Ragnar for 7GPT. This allows us to run esp. at 70%. We whip a courthouse in Alemanni.

5>1050 AD: A tornado destroys the Granary in Canterbury. I queue a replacement into the build orders.

6-8>1060-1080 AD: Uneventful turns. I adjust our esp. distribution to favor Qin a lot since the two thefts we have done this round have eliminated practically everything we had in reserve on him. Spys are en route to Sury and Montezuma as well.

9>1090 AD: London finishes its Market and starts a Courthouse. Mansa offers Stone for Ivory and I turn him down. We whip courthouses in Canterbury and Warwick.

10>1100 AD: uneventful.
 

Attachments

OK- got it for tomorrow.

We are allowed to sell tech--so I will prioritize stealing philo. Mansa has a big fat pile of gold we can get.

Basically plan to build more spies and keep stealing. We have a huge backlog of tech we need.
CS a priority.
Try and get HBR and the lit path--it'd be nice to get some jumbos built.
We also urgently need mono for OR.

Sell tech when we can get a decent price.
 
We should probabely build some more units, for safety and an eventual offense. We're still limited more by #of spies than #of eps. We definitely need more production.


I'll be OOP 21 March - 25 March.
 
Hey guys,

While there is a bit of a lull in the play, I thought I would post a quick analysis taking a look at the Scotland Yard (SY) vs. infiltrate question.

To optimize the benefit from Scotland Yard, you would ideally cottage up the capital early on and build up huge bonuses from the +100% ESP. Your game is far from optimal from this point of view (there is a floodplain in the capital without a cottage at turn 121 :cry: ) although I can't really blame you since you didn't have SY in the capital :lol:

As far as I can tell, you popped your Great Spy at turn 91. You didn't steal your first tech (Monarchy) until turn 130. This is pretty typical in my experience since it takes a while to tech alpha, build spies, and park them in cities for long enough.

Anyway, I looked at all the saves and estimated how much espionage you could have reasonably run (either at a small deficit or usually a small surplus) assuming you had built SY. This is what I saw:

Turn 91: ESP total = 34 (15 from SY)
Turn 111: ESP total = 52 (19 from SY)
Turn 121: ESP total = 52 (18 from SY)
Turn 131: ESP total = 60 (18 from SY)
Turn 140: ESP total = 95 (25 from SY)
Turn 150: ESP total = 116 (29 from SY)

Now the interesting thing is you stole the following Techs early on:

Turn 130: Monarchy cost = 249
Turn 130: Feudalism cost = 580
Turn 140: Currency cost = 331
Turn 148: math cost = 207

Total espionage used by turn 148: 1367

Note: I added 10% to the cost to reflect higher prices for lower overall espionage points.

Espionage generated (assuming linear increases in espionage between data points)

Turn 91 - turn 130: 1927 (703 from SY)
Turn 130 - Turn 140: 775 (215 from SY)
Turn 140 - Turn 148: 835 (214 from SY)

At turn 130, you have roughly twice what you needed to steal monarchy/feudalism. Moreover, with SY, you are gaining espionage at a faster rate than you were using it.

For this varient, I think this is pretty typical. The lesson imo is because it is fairly hard to quickly use EPs, you can actually generate all you need in the early days from SY. This leaves you much better able to redirect your SY enhanced espionage at future victems because it is general EPs instead of dedicated EPs. Notice, by turn 150, SY would be enhancing your overall espionage rate by 33%! And this is without focusing much at all on cottaging up the capital.

One benefit of infiltration that you guys used was the ability to max out gold and still have plenty of espionage. This is definitely a benefit. I think you can still run gold at a surplus if you need to (you generated roughly twice what you had used by turn 148 anyway). However, it is a point to consider.

Ok, enough fighting the conventional wisdom that infiltration is best :) I think in normal games that is almost certainly true. In this varient however where the EP slider will be high and espionage is everything, I am at least convinced SY is generally better.

Fun game btw!

GS
 
Thanks for the gr8 analysis Gr8scott :D

Very good points, but we had our share of bad luck this game which made it harder to start aquiring technologies. Alone with Monty on our landmass and also having him declare on us meant less hammers for spies and ships (we even lost a city). Still, the decision might not be as clear-cut as we thought earlier and your numbers are convincing, I agree now that SY would be better. When I was thinking it over previously I was comparing it to deity tech speeds too--forgetting that immortal is a lot slower.

I guess my conclusion would be that at lower to medium+ levels SY is better for sure as there's not much to steal. On immortal it can be situational while on deity I'd say it's the best choice as the AI techs at an incredible rate.
 
Gr8scott. Thanks for the input (and number crunching to support your argument). Maybe we should try to generate another GSpy......

I think that we are going to struggle to keep up techwise in this game because of the restriction on tech-trading. That's the variant and I'll stick to it but I think we'd be struggling to keep up on immortal with a standard beaker economy and no tech trading (while the AI can of course trade among themselves).
 
Maybe we should try to generate another GSpy.....

That's what the whipped courthouses are for. ;)

Regardless, after playing this game and getting a better feel of the variant philosophical might've been a great choice after all as the Great Spies are so incredibly good for an espionage economy. A usual academy (GS) which is a must have in the capital is only 50% while the SY is 100%. We might not be able to generate an extreme amount of Great Spies and run a lot of spy specialists, but the ones we do get will be such a boost, much more than a usual GP, and getting them as early as possible is crucial as well.

For instance we would get the first Great Spy 25 turns earlier and the next one only 50 turns after instead of 100. That would be 2 SY ~110 turns into the game -> a lot of EP.
 
Regardless, after playing this game and getting a better feel of the variant philosophical might've been a great choice after all as the Great Spies are so incredibly good for an espionage economy.
Well we didn't necessarily think Vic was the best leader:lol:--just wanted to try her out. Liz would have been better as would Darius even if we didn't use his UU.
 
Well we didn't necessarily think Vic was the best leader:lol:--just wanted to try her out. Liz would have been better as would Darius even if we didn't use his UU.

True, ;) but at least in my own thought process I didn't think philosopical would be of very much aid, now I feel otherwise. I'd still play Vicky here for the fun of it and to not having to rely on the absolute "best" leader for the variant, but if I have a go at one of these in single player and don't want financial I could try philosophical instead and still be in good shape. :)
 
OK- here we go.

Doing a city check I think we are erring on working too many spy specs. Realistically only 2 or at most 3 cities will produce a gspy. Much better to run cottages in the others--working even a single spec really crimps growth.

I think capital and one other --I choose Warwick--it has 2 food specs.

As for building units, I think we are pretty well sunk if Monte attacks us again here. We really need to build spies to get back on the tech-stealing program.

IBT Monte comes with a demand:

Civ4ScreenShot0201.jpg



OK--always happy to help.

1110 whip gran in Canterbury, forge in Nottingham.
AP votes stop trading with Mansa--we voted no.

1120...

1130...

IBT Mansa loses holy city to Ragnar.

1140 we wait to get our spies settled.

Monte declares on Khmer! Now that's more like it. Hard to see how he can do much tho.

1150. I steal poly from Khmer but fail to steal mono.

Steal CS from Monte.
Steal Mono from China.

revolt to OR and Bureau:

Civ4ScreenShot0202.jpg



1160...

1180 we fail to steal compass from Monte.

Monte comes with a request:

Civ4ScreenShot0203.jpg


Much as I hate to refuse the guy, we're just not ready for a war now.

1200 we fail to steal HBR from Qin.

We are 7 turns from a GSpy--actually maybe we should not run Gspies in the cap after this but get another city up. We should discuss this.

I notice the Sitting Bull doesn't have enemies any more so I OB with him and trade for rice.
 
ungy said:
We are 7 turns from a GSpy--actually maybe we should not run Gspies in the cap after this but get another city up. We should discuss this.
What do you mean exactly? (edit) nvm, my mind was a little slow--I assume you want to let the courthouse spies outproduce the GW pool for the next birth. Problem with that is that the courthouse spy in London will give twice the amount of EP due to our SY. Then again, 1 less specialist is more commerce and bureacracy will add to that so it could prove beneficial still.

Yay to Monty attacking the Khmer and not so yay to him asking us to join ;/

Got it!

We're allowed to construct buddhist monasteries I hope. They don't provide science, just percentage and we're in need of culture on our border to Monty else we'll lose even more tiles than we have already. The +2 hammers makes it even more worthwhile, I don't see us stealing scientific method any time soon.

We're currently paying 14 gold per turn in military upkeep eventhough the world around us is buddhist all the way. I suggest disbanding some archers, they're useless at this point anyway. We have the idle axemen near the Aztec border who can fill the city garrison. With Monty going to war with the Khmer and QSH+the Khmer being buddhist I don't see any threats until we can draft so I think we can disband some of our ancient army.
 
Disbanding ancient units sounds good. We just need to make sure we stay on Monty's good side and keep him occupied. How on earth is he doing a naval invasion this early in the game though??? That guy is such a nut...

We still have a lot of techs to steal as it looks like we're on medieval techs and the AI is on renaissance techs... More spies??
 
GR8Scott: Thanks for the analysis. I think the cost of the tech we stole might have been considerably more than 10% less with the huge EP stockpile from the infiltration. Remember the discount is on top of the stationary discount.

As pointed out, the early war slowed our stealing down a lot as well.
 
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