Dirk1302
Deity
But we are going for lib aren't we? So while it doesn't help us in any way edu's the only to get there. If we have edu we will have no problem trading it for engineering if we're so inclined.
UNGY5 Let's keep it simple!
- Thread starter ungy
- Start date
silverbullet
King
@Vra,
We are not planning to research education, we are planning to bulb it.
Without multipliers AND with so many neighbours to trade with education is very worth while to bulb. Usually they don't research it early on immortal and it has a great trade value.
As Dirk mentions, it is a prerequisite for liberalism, and it is also a pre-requisite for economics.
If everything goes smoothly with trading (hopefully with friendly Ramesses), we can trade machinery, feudalism and guilds after bulbing part of liberalism. Maybe we will even trade be able to trade for banking (otherwise we will self research it).
Then we can finish the last turn of liberalism and pick economics.
The free GM will help mass upgrading of our horse archers to cataphracts, or it could be saved for trebs->cannon upgrades.
We are not planning to research education, we are planning to bulb it.
Without multipliers AND with so many neighbours to trade with education is very worth while to bulb. Usually they don't research it early on immortal and it has a great trade value.
As Dirk mentions, it is a prerequisite for liberalism, and it is also a pre-requisite for economics.
If everything goes smoothly with trading (hopefully with friendly Ramesses), we can trade machinery, feudalism and guilds after bulbing part of liberalism. Maybe we will even trade be able to trade for banking (otherwise we will self research it).
Then we can finish the last turn of liberalism and pick economics.
The free GM will help mass upgrading of our horse archers to cataphracts, or it could be saved for trebs->cannon upgrades.
pigswill
fly (one day)
In terms of raw beaker count its more efficient to double bulb education than single bulb paper and education. The downside can be that it delays paper which may be useful if you can make money out of map-making (probably not on this map) or plan to build UoS.
Dirk1302
Deity
@all,
I have played until 50 BC when something rather big came up. Charlie was pleased 75 BC one turn after i began so no worries here anymore. 50 BC Ramesses suddenly has 820 gold. What we can do now is trade philo for feud with WK, costs us 75 gold. Subsequently we can trade philo for 820 gold with Ramesses. This would keep us in green for 20 turns and take away our worries about bulbing paper. Charlie won't profit from this deal since he's got nothing to offer to Ramesses or Wang Kon. Wang kon is just too small to be a threat in the lib race, Ramesses is leader but he's not the sort of ai that beelines lib as far as i remember.
I'd go for this for sure but since i'm new to this format and i don't know exactly where making your own decisions during a turnset stops and discussion begins i have stopped and saved the game for now.
I have played until 50 BC when something rather big came up. Charlie was pleased 75 BC one turn after i began so no worries here anymore. 50 BC Ramesses suddenly has 820 gold. What we can do now is trade philo for feud with WK, costs us 75 gold. Subsequently we can trade philo for 820 gold with Ramesses. This would keep us in green for 20 turns and take away our worries about bulbing paper. Charlie won't profit from this deal since he's got nothing to offer to Ramesses or Wang Kon. Wang kon is just too small to be a threat in the lib race, Ramesses is leader but he's not the sort of ai that beelines lib as far as i remember.
I'd go for this for sure but since i'm new to this format and i don't know exactly where making your own decisions during a turnset stops and discussion begins i have stopped and saved the game for now.
silverbullet
King
I think it's definitely worth it. Let's wait to see if there is any objection from other players.
Regarding whether you should stop or not for such issues - I usually stop when in doubt. Most tech trades are a no brainer and there is no need to stop for them once we have a general plan discussed but philosophy is a special case since it can make the AI suddenly beeline lib, so we need to decide collectively whether we want to keep the monopoly or not.
Regarding whether you should stop or not for such issues - I usually stop when in doubt. Most tech trades are a no brainer and there is no need to stop for them once we have a general plan discussed but philosophy is a special case since it can make the AI suddenly beeline lib, so we need to decide collectively whether we want to keep the monopoly or not.
Dirk1302
Deity
Yes, ultimately i felt like this too. I wonder a bit about lib beelines after philo btw, i've read this often on the forums but haven't seen such a clear connection in my own games. Philo can often lead to a nationalism beeline by the ai too. Ais researching paper are more of a warning sign for me. Now they are really one turn from edu and if they happen to decide on this tech they'll go lib next if they have philo, on deity they often have philo via trade, on immortal this is not as clear
The deal sounds great to me, 820 gold is a lot and the faster we get CS the better. With religion safety + spiritual (read: plenty of pacifism) losing liberalism shouldn't be a threat.
I don't have the map in front of me, but I don't believe in running specialists in our capital -- there are so many cottage tiles and hills. We have several cities with 2 (some might have even more?) food resources so make sure to spread religion and get GSs there instead.
Maybe the capital can get 1 GS later on for chemistry or printing press (you usually want to trade for PP though as it's usually (always perhaps? I don't want to vouch for it, been a while since I had this situation) escapes the monopoly thing meaning you can trade for it the moment an AI gets it. At least that's the case with some leaders, I don't know if it's like this with everyone (but it sounds weird to only happen to some). Once all the riverside tiles are taken care of starving out a GS is worth considering, but there would have to be a good reason to -- not something I'd aim for.
P.S Another thing I just noticed in silverbullet's screenshot is that Izzy is getting Theology. I guess that makes buddhist/Izzy AP very likely so the Hippodrome might be extremely beneficial to defy those war resolutions.
I don't have the map in front of me, but I don't believe in running specialists in our capital -- there are so many cottage tiles and hills. We have several cities with 2 (some might have even more?) food resources so make sure to spread religion and get GSs there instead.
Maybe the capital can get 1 GS later on for chemistry or printing press (you usually want to trade for PP though as it's usually (always perhaps? I don't want to vouch for it, been a while since I had this situation) escapes the monopoly thing meaning you can trade for it the moment an AI gets it. At least that's the case with some leaders, I don't know if it's like this with everyone (but it sounds weird to only happen to some). Once all the riverside tiles are taken care of starving out a GS is worth considering, but there would have to be a good reason to -- not something I'd aim for.
P.S Another thing I just noticed in silverbullet's screenshot is that Izzy is getting Theology. I guess that makes buddhist/Izzy AP very likely so the Hippodrome might be extremely beneficial to defy those war resolutions.
Dirk1302
Deity
^ We can self research paper with this deal so this tech doesn't have to be bulbed anymore (but it still can of course). I'm not totally sure how soon we can get the other cities up for running a decent amount of specialists. I don't want to touch the the capital's current cottages, on top of that we might run some extra specialists if necessary. We'll have to see when we get at that point, decision doesn't have to be taken now, i have already begun cottaging more of the capital so don't worry too much 
.
Ungy,Pigswill, Vra what's your opinion on the deal? As it is now i'll go forward with the deal when i resume play.
.Ungy,Pigswill, Vra what's your opinion on the deal? As it is now i'll go forward with the deal when i resume play.
I haven't had a chance to give the game a good look but from what I can tell I think it sounds great to me. That's just a whole lot of $.
I'm a big fan of breaking for discussion when in doubt as to what to do--that's how we all learn.
But you don't need to be afraid to make a decision if you want--you are one of the stronger players on the team and we have confidence in you.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I'm one of the less experienced members of the team but that rarely stops me expressing an opinion. I've noticed that the AI will go for nationalism more often than liberalism (unless they've got free speech or free religion as preferrred civic). Feudalism is on our shopping list and doesn't nerf the liberalism sling. Cash to subsidise pacifism would help us get 3 GS sooner (2 for educ,1 for lib). Go for it.
In terms of SG etiquette its generally a good idea to stop for discussion when you're proposing something unconventional.
In terms of SG etiquette its generally a good idea to stop for discussion when you're proposing something unconventional.
Dirk1302
Deity
100 BC
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Adrianople has a lot of hammer overflow so i queue a worker now.Due in 3 turns so i'll finish it without whip. whip the next one here
Capital begins aqua
Nicaea is switched from barracks to research, will grow to 4 in 2 turns,
then a worker'll be assigned, i also change unimproved spice to cottage.
Change monument to buddist temple in Nicomedia as proposed by Rusten, i agree.
Send a worker to antioch, it hasn't got one atm.
other worker clears jungle near nicomedia so we can chain irrigate later.
75 BC
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Charlie's pleased with us now!
Change Nicaea to worker since a forest has been chopped here.
50 BC
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Ramesses has 820 gold to trade......
Trade philo and 75 gold for feud with wk, subsequently i trade philo for 820 gold with Ram.No trade relations modifier so the deal is no more than fair to him. I switch to Vassalage this turn saves us 1 gold.
Build road for the 9 xp axe, take 1 turn time out to research archery, i'll have to build some units for happiness and it can't hurt to have some solid defence too in case Izz gets ideas in the future.
25 BC
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Trade col to izz for 150 gold, she's only Asoka's worst enemy so i don't incur negatives with my friends. Not only is 150 gold a fair amount of money and Col's not an expensive tech this stage of the game.I also hope to get Izzy to cautious in the end, if we also switch to theo somewhere in the future we will have balanced the heavy religious penalty. Interested what you all think of these sort of deals, i do these sort of things frequently but i don't think every one would make these sort of trades.Ram's friendly now, unfortunately he's also advanced so no trade for the moment.
1 AD
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I make 2 resource deals,
stone for wheat + 5 gpt with Ram
sheep for 6 gpt with charl
This can't hurt us i think.
25 AD
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Can set Charlie on Izz, it'll cost us phil and Feud atm without any other return. Unknown has founded Christianity.
50 AD
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We can now get MC and war with Izz from Charlie for philo,feud and 270 gold. some cities have grown to 4, i Q workers there.
75 AD
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Nothing interesting happens
100 AD
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Decide to stop here. 2 turns from CS, work force is almost doubled. We have 12 now, 4 are queued.In Antioch we should whip in 2 turns for max overflow, in Nicomedia next turn. The barb city hasn't been taken yet, we have to watch out there as Charlie wants it too.
Main reason to stop is to give you a chance to reflect on the deal we can make with Charlie:
I wouldn't do it, else i had probably asked you before. I think we can get Izzy to cautious with more gifts if we're so inclined, she's still at war with Asoka. In order to get some more happiness i have begun some lb's, Vassalage is quite useful here they're CG2 immediately. There's one reason though why we might do it, i think Asoka'll lose the war against Izz which would make her quite strong, Charlie's much more of a match for her, well up to you.
I didn't play that many turns, i've no problems playing the next turnset too if that suits you. But i also don't mind if someone else takes over.
------
Adrianople has a lot of hammer overflow so i queue a worker now.Due in 3 turns so i'll finish it without whip. whip the next one here
Capital begins aqua
Nicaea is switched from barracks to research, will grow to 4 in 2 turns,
then a worker'll be assigned, i also change unimproved spice to cottage.
Change monument to buddist temple in Nicomedia as proposed by Rusten, i agree.
Send a worker to antioch, it hasn't got one atm.
other worker clears jungle near nicomedia so we can chain irrigate later.
75 BC
-----
Charlie's pleased with us now!
Change Nicaea to worker since a forest has been chopped here.
50 BC
-----
Ramesses has 820 gold to trade......
Trade philo and 75 gold for feud with wk, subsequently i trade philo for 820 gold with Ram.No trade relations modifier so the deal is no more than fair to him. I switch to Vassalage this turn saves us 1 gold.
Build road for the 9 xp axe, take 1 turn time out to research archery, i'll have to build some units for happiness and it can't hurt to have some solid defence too in case Izz gets ideas in the future.
25 BC
-----
Trade col to izz for 150 gold, she's only Asoka's worst enemy so i don't incur negatives with my friends. Not only is 150 gold a fair amount of money and Col's not an expensive tech this stage of the game.I also hope to get Izzy to cautious in the end, if we also switch to theo somewhere in the future we will have balanced the heavy religious penalty. Interested what you all think of these sort of deals, i do these sort of things frequently but i don't think every one would make these sort of trades.Ram's friendly now, unfortunately he's also advanced so no trade for the moment.
1 AD
----
I make 2 resource deals,
stone for wheat + 5 gpt with Ram
sheep for 6 gpt with charl
This can't hurt us i think.
25 AD
-----
Can set Charlie on Izz, it'll cost us phil and Feud atm without any other return. Unknown has founded Christianity.
50 AD
-----
We can now get MC and war with Izz from Charlie for philo,feud and 270 gold. some cities have grown to 4, i Q workers there.
75 AD
-----
Nothing interesting happens
100 AD
------
Decide to stop here. 2 turns from CS, work force is almost doubled. We have 12 now, 4 are queued.In Antioch we should whip in 2 turns for max overflow, in Nicomedia next turn. The barb city hasn't been taken yet, we have to watch out there as Charlie wants it too.
Main reason to stop is to give you a chance to reflect on the deal we can make with Charlie:
I wouldn't do it, else i had probably asked you before. I think we can get Izzy to cautious with more gifts if we're so inclined, she's still at war with Asoka. In order to get some more happiness i have begun some lb's, Vassalage is quite useful here they're CG2 immediately. There's one reason though why we might do it, i think Asoka'll lose the war against Izz which would make her quite strong, Charlie's much more of a match for her, well up to you.
I didn't play that many turns, i've no problems playing the next turnset too if that suits you. But i also don't mind if someone else takes over.
silverbullet
King
Haven't looked at the save yet, but this is what I think:
There is one advantage for this deal. Once Charlie has a war on his hands, we can safely switch to Buddhism for 5 turns and I think Izzy will trade with us then. We can switch back after we have traded with her and trade the secrets we learnt back to Charlie/Ramesses.
I need to look at the save's tech screen to see if it's worth it though.
There is one advantage for this deal. Once Charlie has a war on his hands, we can safely switch to Buddhism for 5 turns and I think Izzy will trade with us then. We can switch back after we have traded with her and trade the secrets we learnt back to Charlie/Ramesses.
I need to look at the save's tech screen to see if it's worth it though.
I'm against the war bribe.
I just don't think we get much out of this type of war--Charlie doesn't have any kind of an SOD at this stage and won't do any damage to Iz. Most likely that'll get Iz to make peace with Asoka. I'd just trade fued for MC+gold.
As for the barb city, yes it looks like it will be close. Did Charlie attack last turn with his sword there? If so, it'll get a promo and possibly attack this turn which will dump the city in our lap. In any case I'd send the 2 units down to reinforce. Our chances are pretty good to take it next turn--we have 5 units that can attack, including the damaged axe--3 swords, axe, 9Xp axe. Decent chance that we get the axe to 10XP on a mop-up.
Dirk, if you want to continue, go ahead.
I'm really jammed here with holiday stuff and then away for a week so I can't play a set until after new year's.
I just don't think we get much out of this type of war--Charlie doesn't have any kind of an SOD at this stage and won't do any damage to Iz. Most likely that'll get Iz to make peace with Asoka. I'd just trade fued for MC+gold.
As for the barb city, yes it looks like it will be close. Did Charlie attack last turn with his sword there? If so, it'll get a promo and possibly attack this turn which will dump the city in our lap. In any case I'd send the 2 units down to reinforce. Our chances are pretty good to take it next turn--we have 5 units that can attack, including the damaged axe--3 swords, axe, 9Xp axe. Decent chance that we get the axe to 10XP on a mop-up.
Dirk, if you want to continue, go ahead.
I'm really jammed here with holiday stuff and then away for a week so I can't play a set until after new year's.
Dirk1302
Deity
Agree, no war bribe. Agree with your arguments too, they don't have a long border so fair chance nothing really happens. Unless someone else likes to play i'll continue this weekend.
Time is about right to go caste btw. I have trouble keeping Thes happy atm, it's grown to 10. Will be easier once the barb city's been conquered. Once CS is in i'll contemplate the civic switches. We'll have 16 workers once the queued ones are finished so no need for slavery anymore.
Asoka and Izz will agree peace sometime. Depends a bit on the situation what to do in this case.I'm not so frightened of a cautious Izzy, she may declare but in itself she's not that aggressive so i'm willing to take that chance. So i propose i'll gift her enough to get her there as an annoyed Izzy probably will declare sometime.I think we'll have enough defense to withstand an attack from her but it will set us back for sure so we should try to avoid a war with her till we're ready.
I forgot to make a screenie overview last report, it's not much work so i'll do that in the next one.
Time is about right to go caste btw. I have trouble keeping Thes happy atm, it's grown to 10. Will be easier once the barb city's been conquered. Once CS is in i'll contemplate the civic switches. We'll have 16 workers once the queued ones are finished so no need for slavery anymore.
Asoka and Izz will agree peace sometime. Depends a bit on the situation what to do in this case.I'm not so frightened of a cautious Izzy, she may declare but in itself she's not that aggressive so i'm willing to take that chance. So i propose i'll gift her enough to get her there as an annoyed Izzy probably will declare sometime.I think we'll have enough defense to withstand an attack from her but it will set us back for sure so we should try to avoid a war with her till we're ready.
I forgot to make a screenie overview last report, it's not much work so i'll do that in the next one.
silverbullet
King
Dirk, I think you can continue, seeing that you only played 9 turns.
Roster:
Dirk - up now.
pigswill - on deck
Vra
Rusten
Silverbullet
Ungy - on vacation until Jan 2nd.
Roster:
Dirk - up now.
pigswill - on deck
Vra
Rusten
Silverbullet
Ungy - on vacation until Jan 2nd.
silverbullet
King
A few comments on the last save:
1) I wouldn't have spent so many worker turns on cottages in Nicea. All these tiles can get chain irrigation soon and we have a lot more to whip there (jewish temple for sankore, courthouse, missionary for Saxon, potential emergency army) we could also run scientists there which are as effective as cottages in the first 30 turns, or if we really need commerce while growing, work a lake tile.
Instead, I would have used the worker turns to chop the jungles and build roads, preparing for Calendar.
2) Gifting Techs to Izzy - I agree.
I would try gifting Monarchy first. If that is enough to get her cautious, we might be able to trade calendar for Feudalism.
3) Next tech to research:
After CS I think we should go for Calendar (assuming Izzy doesn't trade it). All of our friends don't have it yet and we need something for our workers to do. Even if they do research it they might not trade it if they decide to build the mausoleum.
After Calendar we should go for paper and build university of Sankore. We will need to build (whip) a forge under organized religion at some point before that.
4) I agree on the no-war bribe.
1) I wouldn't have spent so many worker turns on cottages in Nicea. All these tiles can get chain irrigation soon and we have a lot more to whip there (jewish temple for sankore, courthouse, missionary for Saxon, potential emergency army) we could also run scientists there which are as effective as cottages in the first 30 turns, or if we really need commerce while growing, work a lake tile.
Instead, I would have used the worker turns to chop the jungles and build roads, preparing for Calendar.
2) Gifting Techs to Izzy - I agree.
I would try gifting Monarchy first. If that is enough to get her cautious, we might be able to trade calendar for Feudalism.
3) Next tech to research:
After CS I think we should go for Calendar (assuming Izzy doesn't trade it). All of our friends don't have it yet and we need something for our workers to do. Even if they do research it they might not trade it if they decide to build the mausoleum.
After Calendar we should go for paper and build university of Sankore. We will need to build (whip) a forge under organized religion at some point before that.
4) I agree on the no-war bribe.
Dirk1302
Deity
1) Maybe, cottages have a very low return so early but iirc i couldn't farm there. There are not so much other things to build so we don't have to whip very much. And it was cheap i could move and build in 1 turn so timewise it wasn't that costly relatively. There are not that many tiles to work there so the cottages are sure to be worked. You could run specialists but they only return 3 beakers and the gpp will be worthless. Essentially this is why we will have 16 workers soon, i want all tiles utilized asap.
3) I don't know, some of the ais are almost sure to tech it soon, it almost certainly won't have trade value. But it is the save to do.
I'm going to follow Ungy's suggestion trading Feud for MC soon,was planning this myself .I hope for some more gold though, it's 50 atm iirc.
3) I don't know, some of the ais are almost sure to tech it soon, it almost certainly won't have trade value. But it is the save to do.
I'm going to follow Ungy's suggestion trading Feud for MC soon,was planning this myself .I hope for some more gold though, it's 50 atm iirc.
I'd do the MC+70 gold trade while we still can.
I don't understand the Nicea cottages either. It's just 2 turns for civil service and we need to chain irrigate to let that corn tile up north have fresh water. These cities also have a fair share of dead tiles which means maximising food with the tiles we have is a good idea -- not cottages. I could explain why but it should be fairly obvious.
If you lacked something to whip/build you could start on Moai Statues (we have 2 sources of stone). There is always something to get. We're going to have to farm over these cottages anyway so the workers should've brought Antioch up to speed instead. Why work a cottage over plains stone?
Do we really need more than 12 workers? They're already started so I suppose we can finish them, but I'd imagine we'll have enough to improve what we need.
Calendar next sounds good to me -- its benefits are simply too big to leave it to chance.
Sorry for being a meanie.
I don't understand the Nicea cottages either. It's just 2 turns for civil service and we need to chain irrigate to let that corn tile up north have fresh water. These cities also have a fair share of dead tiles which means maximising food with the tiles we have is a good idea -- not cottages. I could explain why but it should be fairly obvious.
If you lacked something to whip/build you could start on Moai Statues (we have 2 sources of stone). There is always something to get. We're going to have to farm over these cottages anyway so the workers should've brought Antioch up to speed instead. Why work a cottage over plains stone?
Do we really need more than 12 workers? They're already started so I suppose we can finish them, but I'd imagine we'll have enough to improve what we need.
Calendar next sounds good to me -- its benefits are simply too big to leave it to chance.
Sorry for being a meanie.
Dirk1302
Deity
Ok, we'll farm over the cottages later. I missed that the corn could be irrigated. Given the amount of jungle/forest we have to chop i think 16 workers is not that bad, especially since we don't have libs/monasteries/universities/markets to build. Snaaty suggests having 2 workers/city, i agree with that and the reason i often don't reach that number in other games (but > 1.5 usually) is that i have so much other stuff to build in those games.More workers also give some more flexibility later switching improvements on tiles. Some farms may be switched to workshops once we've run the specialists for instance.
