UNGY5 Let's keep it simple!

[pigswill]

ungy: we still have an absolute minimum of 7 turns before masonry (and that assumes that alphabet's available for trade and we decide to trade for masonry rather than research it ourselves) so worker #4 can be delayed a few turns. That's enough time to build a settler first; the two southern workers will become unemployed as soon as they've mined the next hill and can head north. The existing warrior can serve as initial garrison while awaiting an axe. Obviously we have the same minimum interval before we can trade for IW (again assuming that alphabet and IW are available as trade items).
Someone is going to settle our south west, we can be sure of that. If we don't get at least one city out before focussing on mids then there's going to be a delay before we have more settlers with a good chance that Chuck will grab the land and turn Constantinople into a frontier city (not good).

Addendum; Why is 'keeping it simple' so complicated?

 

[ungy]

ungy: we still have an absolute minimum of 7 turns before masonry (and that assumes that alphabet's available for trade and we decide to trade for masonry rather than research it ourselves) so worker #4 can be delayed a few turns. That's enough time to build a settler first; the two southern workers will become unemployed as soon as they've mined the next hill and can head north. The existing warrior can serve as initial garrison while awaiting an axe. Obviously we have the same minimum interval before we can trade for IW (again assuming that alphabet and IW are available as trade items).
Someone is going to settle our south west, we can be sure of that. If we don't get at least one city out before focussing on mids then there's going to be a delay before we have more settlers with a good chance that Chuck will grab the land and turn Constantinople into a frontier city (not good).

Addendum; Why is 'keeping it simple' so complicated?

You sold me on the settler--I agree we need to claim land down there, and if we get the fish/stone spot so much the better.
Maybe take a break when COL is in and evaluate trading possibilities?

I think trying to play well is very complicated and we're doing an excellent job planning and discussing our sets.

 

[pigswill]

Time for a break.

Played seven turns.

CoL is in.

Trade opportunities: none.

Details:
T0. Remove granary(no hammers) from queue in Thess. Whip axe. pop 2.
Start settler in Const ahead of worker.

T1. Thess pop3. Axe>worker.
Whip settler in Const (2pop).

T2. Bud spreads to Adrianople (missionary).
Const settler>worker.

T4. Charlemagne converts - to Judaism.

T5. Buddhism spreads to Const.
Const worker>gran.

T7. CoL in in. Confu founded in Thess.
Wang converts to Judaism.
Nicea (stonehorsefish) founded.

We have a settler looking for a good home. Chuck has been busy colonising south of the jungle:

We haven't adopted a religion.
We haven't switched to caste (though I'm sure we should).
No-one's learned alphabet: The Immortal Illiterates!

 

[silverbullet]

Religion status doesn't look good. We really want to avoid war for a while so we can settle all the land we blocked and complete the pyramids.

With Judaism we are almost guaranteed to be declared by Isabella so that's not an option.
With Budhism we are likely to annoy Charlemagne.
Staying with no religion leaves us at risk of war from both charlie and Isabella. Both of them don't declare at pleased, so if we choose to stay with no religion, make sure to gift them a tech until they are pleased.

Please make sure to avoid having 8 bordering tiles with Charlemagne until we can please him via trade.

We can go on and self research fishing/masonry and hope for WK to finish alphabet.
Temples in the capital may be a good idea for happiness.
I agree we should switch to caste system - we need to pop culture in new cities.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

mids doesn't seem too realistic... it's 950 already, an industrious ai, no stone hooked, not even a monument in nicea.

with pink plan, settling on the grassland, unless you win the floodplain tile 1se from the stone(which is doubtful at best) you won't have 8 tiles for quite a while. Plus 8 tiles was for random war only? Ok, I don't remember tbh. But anyway, charlie's ramses's neighbor, so probably he'll be thoroughly spammed by him - I don't think he'll be budhist this game. Hopefully he'll pick izzy over you, but I wouldn't hold my breath(yeah, I don't like the guy at all )

anyway, if it'd be something to pick, I'd pick juda and hope izzy will take ramses over you(at least this seems more realistic then charlie picking izzie over you)

 

[Rusten]

IME the Pyramids often don't get built until the 300-400 BC range. With stone and chopping it won't take long to build it. Monument in Nicea doesn't matter, we could've had it a long time ago but we're going to pop our border by running CS and hiring an artist so it wasn't necessary.

 

[silverbullet]

It's not too bad to try to chop the pyramids with stone. Even if we miss it we get a nice pile of cash (with a legitimate multiplier, which is something we can't get easily)

I don't believe it's wise to adopt Judaism unless we seriously beef up our defences with walls in all border cities. Isabella is very quick to get annoyed by a different religion, and in the current stage we have a very lousy defence.

 

[vra379971]

The other consideration here is what type of land do our two antagonists have? Izzy might not be that bad actually as long as we make a concerted effort to keep her small and resourceless. In anycase, we should really make a final decsion on which side of the coin we're going to fall, and make plans from that standpoint.

 

[ungy]

I'd say our best bet at this point is to stay no religion --maybe convert for 5 turns if Iz asks us then switch back.
There's a pretty good chance that Iz ends up at war with one of her other neighbors and then we can take Judiasm.
Things with Charlie should develop a little slower.

Tech wise I'd say take fishing after masonry but then run 0% and wait for the AI to get alpha.

I'd run 2 artists to try and flip the barb city ASAP.

 

[pigswill]

Flipping barb city south of Thess is of little value as Ramses has built a city to its south claiming the gold. So it'll be more a a flipping raze. Playing last three turns (is this the longest set in the history of SGs?).

 

[pigswill]

T8. Revolt to caste. Muck around with specialists. Artists for border pops, scientist in Thess, masonry due in 3.

T9. Adrianople pops borders, sack artist.
move. Moved worker to horses, sent axe to explore barb city, forgot or didn't register that barbs know how to walk on roads, barb archer captures worker, kill barb archer but scant consolation.
Founded Antioch:

Two tile overlap with chuck's city (desert and coast) but it was the only way to nab the fish.

T10. Masonry>fishing. Conmiss converts Nicea. Nicea pops borders. Workers heading towards stone.
Const loses unhappy face next turn. Thess finishes worker next turn. Our economy stinks- we need to build some cash.
The AIs may know how to write but they're writing without the benefit of an alphabet. Ideograms? Runes?

Awaiting the Rusten Rant.

Here's a map:

Here's a save:

 

[vra379971]

Got it. Will evaulate in the morning.

 

[vra379971]

Alright. Here's my exec summary.

We must kill Isabella As Soon As Possible. The religion battle is against her, and we are running out of close room to settle. If we don't rush the Pyramids and then immediately summon an army to defeat her, we won't last long at all.

So, I'd like to propose a shoring up of the border around Vandal, chopping Pyr in the capital, and then a revolt to Rep for the mass happiness.

In the meantime we summon a few axes and spears to start pillaging Isabella's land - in the meantime I'll do a fast scout. Hopefully she has iron, as we sure don't.

Needless to say, I'm suggesting we becoem Jew, but that is likely the safe thing to do.

 

[silverbullet]

Vra: why do you say there is no room to settle? There is at least 1 more city we need to settle to block the jungle from Charlemagne, then there is the barbarian city to take, and at least another internal jungle city.

I don't think it's a good idea to start a war at this stage.

Regarding pyramids: I would start pre-chopping forest and building it in the capital. Hopefully we can delay the full chop until we can trade for mathematics, but if it's not possible we should calculate the turns that will bring us the pyramids as soon as possible.

We should scout east more. Maybe we could settle another city there. 1NE of cow we might be able to steal the banana from Isabella and culturally takeover the barbarian city.

Given the expansion opportunities, I would like to avoid war for as long as possible, adopt no religion unless we get an explicit demand (and then switch for 5 turns only).
Also, give in to any demand of tech/money/resource that any of our close neighbours will make.

 

[pigswill]

War against the barbs is certainly worth considering. Saxon and Hun are worth taking, possibly Harrapan and any others lurking in the fog. However the AIs will also be barb bashing so we won't get them all.
Need to keep an eye on tech trade table to pick up alphabet asap, we can't really develop our cities until we get IW, maths would be a useful boost to chopping as well.
If we're building pyramids in capital then Thessalonica is the city to build our next jungle grabbing settler.

 

[ungy]

Alright. Here's my exec summary.

We must kill Isabella As Soon As Possible. The religion battle is against her, and we are running out of close room to settle. If we don't rush the Pyramids and then immediately summon an army to defeat her, we won't last long at all.

So, I'd like to propose a shoring up of the border around Vandal, chopping Pyr in the capital, and then a revolt to Rep for the mass happiness.

In the meantime we summon a few axes and spears to start pillaging Isabella's land - in the meantime I'll do a fast scout. Hopefully she has iron, as we sure don't.

Needless to say, I'm suggesting we becoem Jew, but that is likely the safe thing to do.

I disagree.

While most likely we will end up in a war vs. Iz, it needs to happen on our timing and that timing is not now.

There is still expansion to be done, and the 'mids are worth it IMHO.

If we avoid a religion for the next set or two (and I think we should go to 10 turn sets--there's a lot happening now), we have an excellent chance of Iz going to war with one of the others--then we can take Judiasm.

A scout of Iz is certainly a good idea--if we free up a unit I'd do it.

 

[silverbullet]

I agree with 10 turn sets. Also, we should pause for consultation after tech trading is available.

 

[Rusten]

We lost a worker to the barbarians.
We really needed that one to chop the Pyramids.

Please don't whip the capital. I only suggested one whip *if* we were to adopt a religion for happiness. It's such a waste not to work riverside rice and cows.

We already have -1 close borders with Izzy but nothing with Charlemagne. Furthermore Charlemagne is not the founder of Judaism so we'll get less dipo hit. I would adopt Buddhism for temporary happiness and to get Izzy to pleased while waiting for her to get enough on her hands. Once she has enough on her hands we can convert to Judaism instead. We could do it earlier than this as well. The point is that I don't see any danger of going Buddhism the next 5-10 turns.

A (spiritual) temple or two would be so much better than a granary. It has enough food to grow anyway -- better to get the needed happiness.

 

[pigswill]

@Rusten. Yes, losing the worker was a stupid mistake. I was very tempted to load an autosave but I obviously didn't.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

IME the Pyramids often don't get built until the 300-400 BC range. With stone and chopping it won't take long to build it. Monument in Nicea doesn't matter, we could've had it a long time ago but we're going to pop our border by running CS and hiring an artist so it wasn't necessary.

totally forgot about caste(no clue why). But IME - mids, immortal - -1.3k - 1k(I start getting cranky -0.9k if I ain't done and whip 1st chance). And I don't see why speed would impact it so much... though anyway, chopping with stone even for cash only is good.