Unification or Nationalism - No one seems to notice

[Gucumatz]

So since apparently the nationalists migrated outside of World History, I just thought I'd ask as a whole: Should we really have further disintegration of various states into smaller nations, or as a whole wouldn't it better in most circumstances for greater unification. I thought of titling this thread "EU still winning, no one seems to notice" but I felt that joke would go off wrong. Either way, I am not exactly a fan of breakaway potential provinces/movements like the Basques (or any of the Spanish separatists) that don't really have that great of an argument for separation. In reality they are not being oppressed, they have significant voices in their governments, the governments are (relatively) tolerant of them, etc.

It seems uncivilized to me in general for people without serious grievances to actually weaken their economic positions, trade power, etc. in a changing world, but mostly unrealistic in most circumstances. Now I wouldn't say this is applicable across the world - but particularly in stable locations, like Europe (relatively). What do you all think? (Poll on its way)

 

[Borachio]

I've long held the view that the process should go in two directions at once:

Power should/could be devolved to smaller and smaller units, ultimately reaching the individual.

And it should/could be delegated to larger and larger supranational structures, ultimately reaching the world.

The trick is to pick which powers should go in which direction.

 

[Tahuti]

That totally depends on the policies taken by the polity on top of the seceding nation. I'm generally against self-determination since it is better to attempt to improve the policies of your polity rather than seceding from it. Which is why I think Catalonian and Flemish independence are just total <snip>, since Spain and Belgium are fairly decent countries. Conversely, seceding from a <snip> country to become another <snip> country like in Kosovo and Nagarno-Karabakh is totally crap as well.

However, in some rare cases, secession may be the only way. The Baltic countries did the right thing by getting out of the USSR, since they now do not have to suffer the terrible economic policies Russia and the like are now doing, and probably would have no hope of overturning anyhow. The Dutch revolt against the Spanish and the Belgian revolt agains the Dutch were fairly justified as well. Likewise, while I support a Federal Europe (though with strong reservations) for the purpose of enabling not only free trade within the EU but also make governments stronger in regards to transnational institutions, I do oppose the UN for the war on drugs and the fact its responsible for a number of horrible foreign policy initiatives that are inherent to the UN's composition, something that cannot be fixed by anything else than doing it away.

Moderator Action: Please watch your language - Grisu

 

[bhsup]

To be honest, I base my views on what I think would be best for me and by extension my country. That leads to a double standard. Missouri absolutely has the right to secede if it wants. I don't think foreign places (most of the time) should secede from their parent country simply because that complicates things for the USA. I have no feelings of empathy or support (most of the time) for independence movements outside of USA.

Exceptions: I look forward to the day that Kan assumes the throne of a free and independent Scotland. While that might go against my typical view of loving all things UK, well... Kan's just that bloody awesome.

 

[schlaufuchs]

That leads to a double standard. Missouri absolutely has the right to secede if it wants.

Missouri absolutely doesn't have the right to secede if it wants as the Supreme Court of the United States ruled unilateral secession unconstitutional in Texas v White in 1869.

 

[bhsup]

Oh stuff the SC. Let them rule how they want. If we wanna leave, we'll leave. Lucky for the rest of you guys in the other 49, we love y'all and don't wanna leave.

 

[Tahuti]

Missouri absolutely doesn't have the right to secede if it wants as the Supreme Court of the United States ruled unilateral secession unconstitutional in Texas v White in 1869.

In the unlikely event in which all states that matter secede from the USA simultaneously, this will be a very hollow verdict. Plus, it might be overturned one day, who knows.

 

[Phrossack]

Oh stuff the SC. Let them rule how they want. If we wanna leave, we'll leave. Lucky for the rest of you guys in the other 49, we love y'all and don't wanna leave.

Missourah, maybe, but Missouri will stay loyal.

 

[Rashiminos]

#'s 3 and 4 are essentially the same. The aim is to create a hierarchy and enforce it for the sake of those higher in the hierarchy.

 

[Antilogic]

In the unlikely event in which all states that matter secede from the USA simultaneously, this will be a very hollow verdict. Plus, it might be overturned one day, who knows.

For it to be overturned, a case with a party that is directly involved in some secessionist movement has to be involved in a relevant lawsuit, and the Court has to choose to hear it.

I can't see the Supreme Court even taking up a case on secession except to whack it down.

 

[Tahuti]

I can't see the Supreme Court even taking up a case on secession except to whack it down.

"Okay, we'll hear your case!" [We are going to whack it down!]

...

"We have found that 'perpetual union' is not just a political slogan, but is one loaded with a strong sense of irony."

 

[gangleri2001]

So since apparently the nationalists migrated outside of World History,

Do you think nationalism is a thing of the past? LOL! Everyone is a nationalist.

they have significant voices in their governments, the governments are (relatively) tolerant of them, etc.

weaken their economic positions, trade power, etc.

Leaving Spain is going to hurt our economy?

What do you all think? (Poll on its way)

That you've no idea what are you talking about and you are just mumbling the usual brainless pro-globalisation propaganda you've being eating your whole life.

 

[Josu]

Do you think nationalism is a thing of the past? LOL! Everyone is a nationalist.

No, they like to be called citizens of the wolrd



I think that the comic does not need explanation

 

[gangleri2001]

I think that the comic does not need explanation

I think it does. I don't think foreigners realize how cryptofascist the Spanish society might be (exlucing Catalans and Basques). They all really believe that Spain is a truly democratic country. I remember some years ago that a brazilian poster once said that he also believed that until he began to learn Spanish and he used the right-wing newspapers from Spain to practise his Spanish and he literaly was left speechless. I think that doing something as innocent as translating La Razón or ABC into English would help to open many eyes in the international arena.

 

[Domen]

Unification (alliance, friendly relations and ties, cooperation, etc.) and "standarization" are two different things.

We can be unified and still diversified, respecting differences. We don't need to be "standardized" to be unified.

Currently the European Union is rather aiming at forcefull standarization, destroying diversity rather than strengthening ties.

 

[gangleri2001]

Unification (alliance, friendly relations and ties, cooperation, etc.) and "standarization" are two different things.

We can be unified and still diversified, respecting differences. We don't need to be "standardized" to be unified.

Currently the European Union is rather aiming at forcefull standarization, destroying diversity rather than strengthening ties.

I think it actually aims at enslavement. Just look at what they did in Greece or Cyprus, or what does it tell you about their "democratic" principles when you think abut what they did in Italy in 2011? And what about those countries in the north that want to leave such as Denmark or Sweden. They're forced to stay in the Union despite the fact that most people there doesn't want to know *excrement* about the EU and the UK is the only oone that is going to leave only because is strong enough to stop the EU.

Rising misery in the south, massive rip off in the north and rising job insecurity for everyone. Do I need to say more?

 

[filli_noctus]

Perhaps independence minded regions should be given the option of a trial separation. Give them de facto independence for 5-10 years then at the end of the period hold a plebiscite to make the status de jure. Of course there will be some issues with currency (at least for non-Eurozone polities) and certain state functions may have to be contracted out to the parent nation or a third party whilst the government infrastructure is assembled but plenty of states do that anyway (e.g. the sixty odd nations that contract their currency production to the Royal Mint).

 

[Kyriakos]

A good question would be if it is safer for Catalonia (and Basque country?) to leave now, before the inevitable collapse of the european union as an entity. I have to suppose that the latter will happen anyway, cause it is just not sustainable anymore, and there will be a nice world after that too given that with trade tariffs at nearly 100% some countries won't be exporting many cars anymore.

 

[Josu]

A good question would be if it is safer for Catalonia (and Basque country?) to leave now,

My personal opinion is that yes, that it is safer, for catalan and basque compalnies today is a kind of plummet identifying abroad themselves as Spaniard. There is no a good image of Spanish companies due to a stereotipes and thanks to the fishy economic spanish tradition. The company I work for (half basque) has been rejected for some projects due to this reason. (maybe as part of this fishy culture that was what the marketing managers told us in order to hide other facts)

I would like to remark that this is a personal opinion, based on personal experiencies, I am not economist, furthermore, have no idea about economics, so perhaps from the macroeconomics point of view, it is not safer, I don't know.

On the other hand, the Spaniard unionist can rest easy with the Basques, currently basque country is being governed by the Basque nationalist party, who have repeated several times in the last weeks that they consider that the strategy followed currently by the Catalan Government is an error, and that we will try on 2020 (I don't belive that my Elf-eyes will see this)

 

[gangleri2001]

Perhaps independence minded regions should be given the option of a trial separation. Give them de facto independence for 5-10 years then at the end of the period hold a plebiscite to make the status de jure. Of course there will be some issues with currency (at least for non-Eurozone polities) and certain state functions may have to be contracted out to the parent nation or a third party whilst the government infrastructure is assembled but plenty of states do that anyway (e.g. the sixty odd nations that contract their currency production to the Royal Mint).

The problem with this faux independence is that it would have troubles that real independences don't have.

A good question would be if it is safer for Catalonia (and Basque country?) to leave now, before the inevitable collapse of the european union as an entity. I have to suppose that the latter will happen anyway, cause it is just not sustainable anymore, and there will be a nice world after that too given that with trade tariffs at nearly 100% some countries won't be exporting many cars anymore.

Since every year we've got a fiscal cliff or a federal shutdown in the States thanks to their blindness, I think the end of the EU is very likely but unfortunately it is not something inevitable yet. But yes, supposing the EU is going to colapse, leaving now that we have some european and NATO control is better than leaving us alone with the Spaniards and their habit of using the army against defenceless civilians.