Unique Civ-Specific Great People Names

[Gaius Octavius]

fearuin and Gaias_Ocatvius, may I ask from where you got the names? I've been yearning for a relieable source where I can get the names you listed .

Well, I guess fearuin beat me to it. But I also got a few names from ancient translated sources that I have come across in books and whatnot, such as Idrimi (founder of a Sumerian dynasty).

I do have to question if we really want Utanapishtim as a great prophet--it's unlikely that he ever really existed (he's just a character in the Epic of Gilgamesh). Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost certainly a real historical person, though legends have grown up around him over time.

I guess it's really just an issue of realism; I'm not trying to detract from your pretty good list.

BTW, I noticed that you included some Arab GP as well; this might be a problem since I have them listed already under Arabia, so they might be born twice in the course of the game.

 

[werttrew]

This would be an awesome addition, if do-able.

 

[Mowque]

seems to me like it would take a lot of time merely typing it in and whatnot. maybe it will be added with the 'optimal' versions?

 

[Prestidigitator]

I do have to question if we really want Utanapishtim as a great prophet--it's unlikely that he ever really existed (he's just a character in the Epic of Gilgamesh). Gilgamesh, on the other hand, is almost certainly a real historical person, though legends have grown up around him over time.

Well, Utnapishtim is atleast considered to be the Mesopotamian name for Noah. I'll tell you some things :
1. Noah's ark is thought to have landed in Mesopotamia (if not then near).
2. Noah is thought to have lived approx. 900 years, that is one of the main reasons why many archaeologists hypothesised that this is why he was thought to be immortal in the epic of Gilgamesh.

So even if it is uncertain that he existed, it is -almost- certain that he was Noah .

BTW, I noticed that you included some Arab GP as well; this might be a problem since I have them listed already under Arabia, so they might be born twice in the course of the game.

That's right, I included some Abbasid names, mainly because the Abbasids were medieval Mesopotamia (Iraq). So the other list (the Arabian one) can be editted accoridingly.

I tell you what, I found a website that listed virtually ALL the Arab scientists, so what we can do is deduce Abbasid names from the list of Arabian GPs, and replace them with other Arabian ones . Sounds good?

I don't think it'd be a hard job compiling the list, we already have the list ready for other civs, all I need is to add tabs for Babylon and add the Babylonian names. Voila, it is merely 2-3 files editted.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

You found a site with nearly ALL the Arab scientists? Where is it? This sounds like a gold mine for me!

I understand what you're saying about Utanapishtim, about the similarities with the Genesis flood and Noah. As you say, many people believe that they are in fact the same person, i.e. that Utanapishtim in the Gilgamesh epic is a kind of fractured Mesopotamian memory of Noah. I'm just not certain whether it's appropriate to include him (Utanapishtim) because of the question of historicity or applicability. He isn't exactly the same kind of prophet as, say, Abraham. And this is sort of like having Romulus or King Arthur in; yes, their legends were probably originally inspired by real people too, but we don't know who those real people are.

But either way it looks like it'll work. I suppose it's not any different from how I used kings' names for different GP. Between the two of us, we have already, what, seven great prophets? That's a pretty good start.

 

[Riker]

I'm perplexed by the roman list. Almost all the prophets are christian saints, but Rome was pagan for a long time.
For the GS, Cato and Cicero are not fitting their role of politicians and horators. And I'm pretty sure that Livio was an historian, maybe better for a GA.
Leonardo da Vinci as GE is fine, but he can also be an A or a S, he was everything...

Columbus was not Spanish, but Italian. He must be in the Roman list.

 

[Spearthrower]

The whole "and Noah lived for 900 years" business in the Bible, I always took to mean Lunar years, which would make Noah approximately 75 - still a venerable age for a time in which most people didnt make it past their 30's.

 

[SadoMacho]

Often people in the early bible were dynasties, not one person, and that's why they lived so long.

 

[Spearthrower]

There's a whole section devoted to listing names and corresponding ages - it includes Noah - I can't remember the part of the bible (somewhere in Old Testament, somewhere near the beginning!!) as it's been many years since I last read it and I aint a Christian

All of them divided by 12 work out to be between 45 and 75 if you take it that they are written in as lunar ones.

 

[fearuin]

I prefer to put Hammurabi as a GP. I know, he wasn't a prophet, but he managed to do something that, in-game, only GP are enable to do: rush research of Code of Laws. Maybe, in another conditions, Hammurabi played a different role, if Babilonia founded one of the mayor religions, for example. Another "Babilonian" GP is Ali Ibn Abi Talib. He was the founder of the shii branch of Islam, reputed as saint, and, most important: he was Arabia, but ruled many years in Kufa (modern Irak), and his death caused a war between Iraq (with capital in Kufa) and Arabia (with capital in Damascus, on that period).

Hope this is useful.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Let me try to address everyone's questions individually.

Riker:
For the Roman prophets, yes I am aware that they are all early Christian / Roman Catholic figures. This was done largely because that is what most people are familiar with today when they think of the Roman Church, even though it would be equally correct to include pagan priests and whatnot. Rome existed for 1,000 years before becoming Christianized, but's it been that way for twice as long. I thought about including pagan figures, but who exactly would be best to represent pagan Rome? There were many holders of the Pontifex Maximus office, including Caesar; I don't know of any particular one that stands out. Likewise, the Vestal Virgins were famous as a body, not really any one in particular (except the last one, who--you guessed it--converted to Christianity). Yes, it's a little unbalanced, but such are the fortunes of history. If I'd gone the other way, I'm sure people would have complained that there were no Christian leaders in. But don't worry, I can always add names later. There's no limit (I hope).

About Livy and Livius, these are two separate people. One wrote the history of Rome, the other was a poet. And yes, I accidentally reversed them in the list... once again. It will be corrected.

Cato was also a historian; Cicero was a political theorist, philosopher and writer in addition to being the most famous orator in history. I admit that I just copied these names from the C3C Rise of Rome scenario, but they do fit.

Columbus' famous voyage was done under the Spanish flag, and that is why he is included with Spain. Same thing with Apollodorus--he's a Greek! But he was Trajan and Hadrian's engineer (helped rebuild the Pantheon), so he's included as a Roman GE.



As for the Noah / Utanapishtim issue, let me say again that I don't think he should be included, not because of any age-related issues or even because some argue that he never existed, but because I don't think he quite fits the bill of a great prophet. These people represent philosophers, religious thinkers, founders of various sects, theologians, bishops, reformers and the like, and neither Noah nor his Mesopotamian counterpart really works that well in this category. Abraham does; Jonah does, in a way; Noah doesn't.


fearuin:
Hammurabi is the Babylonian leader in the game, right? For this reason, I don't think it would be the best idea to have him as a GP. Doesn't make sense if you're playing as Hammurabi and you find out that you have been born all of a sudden. (Of course, it doesn't make sense to have leaders living 6,000 years, but we won't get into that...) There are plenty of other people we can use.

 

[fearuin]

Let me try to address everyone's questions individually.

Of course, it doesn't make sense to have leaders living 6,000 years, but we won't get into that....

I always thought that, when it's said at the beginning of the game "...your people have vested in you absolute power"
it was meant that you became something like a demigod . But I agree your explanation.

 

[Prestidigitator]

Hi guys ,
Just so you know, I've created the code for the Babylonian 'Great Poeple', it should be as easy as 'cut and paste' to add them to the game .

However I still need to alter the other names, (some of you weren't fond of some of the other civs' names -Columbus comes to mind).

What I need is a list of what you think should be deleted/ changed. Leave Arabia for me, I'll deal with it.

The faster I get the names the faster I'll finish compiling them, I'm hoping to finish this in the next (FINAL) release .

 

[fearuin]

OK, here is it. I'll take care of the civ I know better: mine, SPAIN! Here it's shown the entire original list, with the name correctly spelled in Spanish, and with the names of the GP I feel that should be in (however, you have done a great work, Gaius Octavius ). Note that foreigner people that lived or done its work under Spanish flag or in Spanish territory (like Apóstol Santiago - Saint James, son of Zebedee) are included.

SPAIN

GP: San Ignacio de Loyola, Junípero Serra, Bartolomé de Las Casas, Juan de Sepúlveda, Santa Teresa de Avila, Apóstol Santiago, Alfonso III el Santo, Abderramán III

GA: Pablo Picasso, Miguel de Cervantes, Diego de Silva Velázquez, Garcilaso de la Vega, El Greco, Francisco de Goya, Salvador Dalí, Arcipreste de Hita, Martín Códax, Lucio Anneo Séneca, Azorín, Benito Pérez Galdós, Federico García Lorca, Alfonso X el Sabio

GS: Juan de Ortega, Gerardo de Cremona, Joao Baptista Lavanha, Fausto de Elhúyar, Azarquiel, Miguel Servet, Santiago Ramón y Cajal, Avicena, Juan de la Cierva, Isaac Peral,

GE: Juan de Herrera, Ildefons Cerdà, Juan de la Cierva, Narcís Monturiol, Esteban Terradas i Illa, Leonardo Torres y Quevedo, Maestro Esteban, Julio Cervera Baviera, Alejandro Goicoechea, Santiago Calatrava Valls

GM: Cristobal Colón, Fernando de Magallanes, Ponce de León, Hernando de Soto, Juan Sebastián Elcano, Alvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca, Pánfilo Narváez, Vasco Núñez de Balboa, Amancio Ortega Gaona,

GG: El Cid, Viriato, Francisco Coronado, Hernán Cortés, Francisco Pizarro, Felipe II, Gonzalo Fernández de Córdoba, Don Pelayo, Alfonso VI, Jaime I el Conquistador, Felipe V d'Anjou, General Prim, Francisco Franco


I guess they're enough. They might be others, but they didn't come to my mind, so they shouldn't be such important.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

However I still need to alter the other names, (some of you weren't fond of some of the other civs' names -Columbus comes to mind).

Oh, come on, we don't really need to edit the other lists, do we? You haven't seen my "big" list yet--there are many more people there. Besides, if people disagree on only one name or two, well, it's very easy for them to move 'em around in notepad...

I just can't imagine Columbus as belonging anywhere else but Spain. Besides, lists of any kind always generate controversy.

 

[sdLeo]

Likewise, the Vestal Virgins were famous as a body, not really any one in particular (except the last one, who--you guessed it--converted to Christianity).

You sparked my curiosity and wiki'ed Vestal Virgins...

I found this:

List of well-known Vestal Virgins

* Aquilia Severa, whom Emperor Elagabalus married amid considerable scandal.
* Coelia Concordia, the last head of the order.
* Rhea Silvia, a possibly mythical mother of Rome's founders.
* Tarpeia, who betrayed Rome to the Sabines, and for whom the Tarpeian Rock is named.

Just thought I'd share...

 

[fearuin]

Oh, come on, we don't really need to edit the other lists, do we? You haven't seen my "big" list yet--there are many more people there. Besides, if people disagree on only one name or two, well, it's very easy for them to move 'em around in notepad...

I just can't imagine Columbus as belonging anywhere else but Spain. Besides, lists of any kind always generate controversy.

I just thought he meant to correct any errors on spelling, and such. That was my purpouse, and even if he didn't have done, I would have done it for my own initiative. I personally added some names because I felt some of them missing. But if you say you have a bigger list, you're welcome. However, the thing is the "deadline": as long as I know, it seems that Rhye doesn't want to delay the final release to next month, so we're in pretty rush. Edit the list later can be easily done, as you say, but just correcting the actual one and add a few more names will just fit to include your modcomp into RFC.

 

[Prestidigitator]

Fearuin, thanks for the list .

Octavius, what bigger list? if atleast you have the names (no code), send them to me to compile, I don't want to have to go through the process of updating a few weeks later .

 

[Pottery]

Originally posted by fearuin
SPAIN
GM: Cristobal Colón

By the same token, Leonardo would be a "French great man" (you know, he worked ‘under the flag’ of François I) and Einstein an "American great scientist" (he taught at Princeton and became an American citizen)... somehow, this doesn't sound right.

GA: Lucio Anneo Séneca

Ok. I'm getting lost here. Columbus was (very probably) born in Genoa but "worked" for the Spaniards, so you put him in the Spanish list. Seneca was born in Cordoba but "worked" for the Romans... so shouldn't he appear in the Roman list? If not, why don't you include Trajan and Hadrian as great generals for Spain? Trajan was born in Italica, in the province Hispania Baetica, near contemporary Seville...

 

[Edungeon]

But in the case of Spain, the value of the discoveries of Colombo didn't go the the treasury of Italy (rome in the game) but to Spain, that's why I think he need to be in the Spain List. ( same to Eistain, is better him in the American List than the German List ).

And for Leonardo, the Sistine Chapell is in Rome, and this is a CIV Wonder. So you can say he was used by the Roman Civilization to Rush the Wonder ;D. So he should be in the Roman List...