Unique Civ-Specific Great People Names

[SadoMacho]

E=MC² is a part of the special theory of relativity (1905, Bern) and is the idea behind the Bomb, so... make him German.

His most important work on the bomb itself was sending a lettre to the US president that they should build the bomb before the Nazi's did, because else they would be in big trouble.

 

[fearuin]

That letter was not the only thing. As I have said, he co-operated with Oppenheimer in the Manhattan Project, until its bitter end. But when it was all done, he was frightened: it had a worse effect than he could have ever imaginated.

If you want, make Oppenheimer an American GS, and everyone will be happy.

 

[Wilhelm II]

Since there were people arguing for Einstein's time in America being more important than his time in Europe (at least that is what putting his name on the American list means to me ), I hoped to get some good info of what he actually acomlished in the US and why this makes him American or more important for the US than Germany. E.g. I have no problem with G.F. Händel being an English/British Great Artist. He spent his most productive time in England.
Einstein in contrast was already famous and in his 50s, when he stayed in America for the rest of his life.
But I guess I have to read a biography to get my answer.

E=MC² is a part of the special theory of relativity (1905, Bern) and is the idea behind the Bomb.

Yes and no. I'm neither a physicist nor chemist, but your statement is a bit misleading. You can use this formula to calculate the amount of energy you "gain" by splitting an atom into two smaller ones or fusing two nuclei into a new one. You have to know a "little" about nuclear physics to build an atomic bomb, the theory of relativity is not quite enough. And AFAIK Einstein was not the most important nuclear physicist (or chemist) of his time.

 

[kairob]

I personally think he should be German, however I am afraid that I have little evidence to back it up, someone should consult wikipedia...

 

[Wilhelm II]

Just some key facts:
1879 Born in Ulm
1880-94 lived in Munich
1896 finished secondary school in Aarau, Switzerland gave up German citizenship (apperently in order to avoid military service)
1896-1900 studied in Zürich
1901 become Swiss citizen
1902 started working at the Swiss Patent Office (to evaluate patents on electrical devices)
1905 annus mirabilis (papers)
1907 doctorate
1908 licenced as a privatdozent
1909 associate professor in Zürich
1911 professor in Prague
1912 professor in Zürich
1914-32 professor in Berlin, member of the Prussian Acedemy of Science, became German citizen once again (in1914)
1917-32 director of the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (predecessor of Max Planck Institute) for Physics
1916/7 general relativity, on quantum mechanics of radiation
1921 Nobel prize
1920s Bose-Einstein statistics
1927 coinvented with Szilárd the Einstein refrigerator
Dezember 1932 guest professor at Pricton University
1933 decides not to return to Germany (Hitler became chancellor in January 1933) and broke all ties to Germany (renounced his German citizenship and membership of the Prussian Acedemy of Science),
1933-55 worked at the newly-founded Institute for Advanced Study, trying to develop a unified field theory
1939 famous letter to Roosevelt
1940 American citizenship (next to his Swiss one)
1955 died on 18th April

According to wikipedia and http://www.princetonhistory.org/museum_alberteinstein.cfm he was not part of the Manhattan project.

 

[kairob]

Then my vote is defonatly for him to count as German (as hitler isnt thier leader )

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Prestidigitator:
The bigger list I referred to is the new one I have just released, with over 2000 names in it. I'll post it on my thread page. [Edit: you can find it in posts 49 and 50.]



This Einstein issue seems to have opened up a can of worms. Let me say first that I am aware that Einstein's major contributions were made not in America, but while he was a patent clerk in Switzerland (not Germany!). 1905 was a big year for him. He made four contributions: an explanation of the photoelectric effect (which got him the Nobel Prize), his paper on special relativity, his explanation of Brownian motion, and finally the derivation of E=mc². Hence, if you are going to use that as a measure of where he should be, then he should be in Wyz_sub10's Switzerland list in CIV Gold (the Swiss are in that, right?). Anyway, he had to flee Germany because of the Nazis' rise to power, and well, it just doesn't seem quite right to have him in there because of it. So many others, like Heisenberg, stayed behind. Einstein lived in the U.S. until 1955 and was a part of Princeton's Institue of Advanced Study, and as some people already pointed out he was behind the push to get the atom bomb before the Germans. He also worked on unification the past few decades of his life, though never succeeded. If you're going to nitpick I guess it really can work either way, but I think more people would complain about him being in with Germany than in the American list.

The problem with Einstein is that he kind of transcends national boundaries; he's an icon. And since he did so many things in different places, it's hard to pin it down exactly.

Something similar could be said about Enrico Fermi--he made contributions for both Italy and America. I just put him in the Italian list to make things come out more even. Einstein in America was just a given to me. (He was in Civ 3's American list; that's just what people today associate him with, plain and simple, and for better or worse.) I really think everyone's making a mountain out of a molehill.

By the way, I just happen to be a physics student, so I find this to be a very interesting and funny conversation. And as my professor once told me, E=mc² is one of the least useful equations in physics, despite its notoriety.

 

[kairob]

Is it possible to have hhim in both lists but only come up once, so whoever gets him first has him? Or we could exclude him as he seemed transend national boundries and put that he isnt on the list and why in one of the quotes when you open it up

 

[botur2young]

1933 decides not to return to Germany (Hitler became chancellor in January 1933) and broke all ties to Germany (renounced his German citizenship and membership of the Prussian Acedemy of Science),

It seems as if putting him on the German list would make little sense, considering that he renounced his citizenship.

 

[Pottery]

as my professor once told me, E=mc² is one of the least useful equations in physics, despite its notoriety.

Your professor probably wasn’t serious when he/she said that. In practical applications, the equation for relativistic energy is very useful when combined with the equation for relativistic momentum, the result being E²=p²c²+(mc²)². This is convenient for calculations, not just interesting from a theoretical point of view, as the momentum of a particle is often known rather than its velocity.

 

[fearuin]

If you're going to start talking about Physics, I'm leaving! :suicide:

However, the Einstein thing can easily be solutioned: make him Independent. Iknow, I said he should be German, and I'm still thinking on it. But I guess the Independents (or Barbs) will continue to use the generic list, no? So have him in that list.

Or make him German, and put Oppenheimer on the American list. But please, please, don't talk about physics! (I can agree to talk about history, because it's something everybody understands, but physics are only comprehensible for those who study physics, and I'm a laws student... I left sciences behind about 6 years ago, and even the relativity theory it's hard to understand for me).

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Pottery:
Yes, it was a bit of tongue-in-cheek about E=mc², but there's an element of truth to it. (This is hard to get across sometimes in posts.) The really useful one everyone remembers is the relation between momentum and energy, as you said, but my professor was just talking about the single equation for rest energy. E=mc² really is overrated in the way the public thinks of it as "the" equation of science. F=ma would be much more appropriate given its historical impact.

fearuin:
I gather that you don't like physics. I know how you feel--I've seen it lots of times. I think I first realized I was in trouble when my first physics test was over and I thought it was fun. Actually, it's not relativity that's bad, once you get used to it, but quantum mechanics. (What do you mean the particle goes through both slits at once?!!)

Oppenheimer is already on the American list!
I don't think it would suit Einstein to be with the independents, as it doesn't really fit the way Rhye has it worked out right now. Do Independents even get great people in his scenario?

kairob:
Yes, this is exactly what I thought of last night after I left the forum, as the game supposedly keeps a list of each person born to prevent them from appearing twice. But I don't know if this would work the way I have it set up, and besides it sets a bad precedent to start listing names twice. Then everybody would complain and we'd have to duplicate many names.


My take is to just leave the lists as they are, and if certain names are really bothersome to people, it is very simple to switch them around in notepad. I hate to take this position, but it seems to be the only viable one.

It really irks me that Firaxis used the name Praetorian rather than Legionary, for example, but I changed it so long ago that I don't even notice anymore. We have to use some kind of standardized list, and we just can't debate every name. So if a certain name really seems ridiculous to someone, I sympathize and all I can say is just change it when you download the new mod. You'll never notice again.

Let's remember why these lists were made in the first place: because we all agreed it was ridiculous to see famous people being born in places completely out of touch with history, like the infamous "Isaac Newton in Shanghai" scenario. (I've never gotten a PM or a post that says, "Please bring back the old way. I like to see Shakespeare born in Japan!") So I understand people wanting to ensure accuracy and not make the same mistake twice, but even at worst it makes sense for Einstein to be American and for Columbus to be Spanish than it does for them to be, say, Russian or Malinese. It really shouldn't be controversial, but if it's going to cause lots of people to get upset (something I want to avoid) then maybe it would be best not to have it in Rhye's and Fall of Civilization after all. I'm beginning to wonder if I should ask Rhye to leave it out.

 

[kairob]

Can I just ask, where do you change unit names? I want legionaries too

 

[Gaius Octavius]

There's actually a really easy way to do it without having to change the actual unit name. Just open assets\xml\text\CIV4GameTextInfos_Objects, find TXT_KEY_UNIT_ROME_PRAETORIAN, and replace the translations of "Praetorian" with "Legionary". That's all there is to it.

 

[kairob]

nice, thanks

 

[fearuin]

fearuin:
I gather that you don't like physics. I know how you feel--I've seen it lots of times. I think I first realized I was in trouble when my first physics test was over and I thought it was fun. Actually, it's not relativity that's bad, once you get used to it, but quantum mechanics. (What do you mean the particle goes through both slits at once?!!)

Well, I like science-fiction movies and books . But part of the fun it's not understanding everything . In fact, I have checked that many physics students do hate sci-fi because it reminds them to their classes.

About Oppenheimer, sorry, I didn't see him. My fault!

 

[Wilhelm II]

Pottery:
F=ma would be much more appropriate given its historical impact.

This, too, is misleading IMHO. Physics is rarely more interesting than the mathematics behind it. Einstein would have disagreed with that, but that's my experience. Therefore both equations E=mc² and F=ma are both boring linear equations. F=m*dr/dt² or F=dp/dt ar much more interseting forms of the same formula, because differential equations are perhaps the most intruguing inclusion. Think of all this "nature works the same way in many different fields" rubbish. You just use the same differntial equation(s) as an approximation for different systems.

Anyway, he had to flee Germany because of the Nazis' rise to power, and well, it just doesn't seem quite right to have him in there because of it. So many others, like Heisenberg, stayed behind.

Then I guess Thaomas Mann and Lion Feuchtwanger, for instance, are both on the American list, too. Heinrich Heine and Joseph Roth on the French list. Alkibiades on the Persian one.
The people who fled Nazi Germany (or chose not to return like Einstein or Mann) had no (non-suicidal) option to return to Germany for years. And once the Nazi Regime had fallen, they usually were too old. It's great that these people found new homes and were able to keep up their productivity, as so many failed to achieve both, but we should not forget that they were forced out.

I really don't care at all, I just don't like poor reasoning. Giving them numbers would be neat. "1 was born Berlin." sounds better than Rommel leading knights or Heissenberg discovering the printing press or Frank Kafka being born.

 

[sdLeo]

YAWN... From the back of the class... (I majored in political science...)

 

[NitroJay]

I really don't care at all, I just don't like poor reasoning. Giving them numbers would be neat. "1 was born Berlin." sounds better than Rommel leading knights or Heissenberg discovering the printing press or Frank Kafka being born.

Exactly... I just read through these four pages and I can't seem to figure out what the big deal is... I'm content with simply "A great prophet has been born in..." "A great General has been born in..." It just seems to me like it's a lot of effort to include the names of Arabic Scientists and Babylonian Prophets that, after a few games, aren't going to matter much...

Eh, maybe I'm wrong, as this would probably add to the "realism" of the mod, since I totally agree that having Patton leading the German army is just plain weird... But I don't see me being that upset if Rhye just removes the names altogether... Hasn't this already happened? I don't get the GP messages anymore anyway, just the sound and the icon...

 

[NitroJay]

You know, if anything, maybe the Great Generals could use a name upgrade... I forgot that, when attached to a unit, you do see the name an awful lot... But I still think that scientists, prophets, and such aren't that big of a deal... They only hang around for a turn or so...