Unique Units elimination thread

[Crafty Bison]

Camel Archer 16
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 19
Keshik 29
Longbowman 36
Minutemen 14

If I'm, say, Netherlands, and I find a militaristic CS with this UU, which one am I most excited about?

Two least exciting for me are CKN and Minuteman, I already downvoted CKN so it's minuteman now. Movement bonus doesn't last that long before GWB's and artillery litter the battlefield, and comes when there are fewer trees and more roads (admittedly roads can't work in enemy territory). As a CS gift, sight is also decreased.

Most exciting is camel archer. If it's added to a balanced army with siege, it doesn't need the keshiks movement bonus as much, and is more powerful. As a kiter, it is of course awesome.

 

[curwen]

Camel Archer 12
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 19
Keshik 28
Longbowman 36
Minutemen 14

keshik this unite give you the world by itself even at deity... that cannot be said of any other one (NNB previous post made an error on keshik rate)

camel archer: bad upgrade path by far the less useful of the remaining choice... (getting range increase on a unit you will upgrade as melee ...) and weak unit (you have no time to develop a camel archer horde to take everything before it is useless...). I build/upgrade many more of the other ones ... and i never get the tech for the unit. yes keshik have the same problem but +1 movement and double xp means you never upgrade your keshik at worse they are scout plus pillaging units and still damage due to so many xp.


and btw i LOVE janissary ... i prefer jaguar as they come earlier but yes healing for a melee is awesome. perhaps will change after next patch but i am not sure because:
1) you cannot pillage your own tile (and that is a great ability on defence ... jaguar -> spearman(hut) -> pike ->lancer .... was an awesome finishing unit....)
2) you can pillage only once an hex...

 

[Crafty Bison]

Camel Archer 12
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 19
Keshik 28
Longbowman 36
Minutemen 14

Sorry, my bad.

 

[Gucumatz]

Camel Archer 13 (+1) @ Curwen - Sure it can with the Camel Archer - The camel archer is on the same upgrade path and is the same replacement as the Keshik. It is 4 movement, has higher ranged strength than the Keshik and higher combat strength than the Keshik. And it comes on a civ with gold advantages and flat terrain normally. With Arabia you can afford larger armies than you could as Mongolia and you can afford them quicker and faster. The Camel Archer is basically a Keshik but stronger and promotes a bit slower. You don't want to be upgrading Camel Archers OR Keshiks really until very late but they make a world of impact
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 19
Keshik 28
Longbowman 36
Minutemen 10 (-4) I don't play America enough but - I think of the ones remaining the mobility on a musketman doesn't seem the most appealing to me. I have a low regard for the upgrade line nowadays and while it could be used like a scout to finish off of a city - thats what you have horse units for. Its a great unit of course and I always enjoy when I have it from a CS or when I do play as America - but it just doesn't feel like it does enough to warrant staying over the others. [My Personal opinion here] Janissary might not be as good comparatively though after the patch - but I will ignore that atm.

 

[curwen]

keshik has +1 move -> guarantee to never being hit ... that is his biggest strength after that he can move after attack. and he has 2x XP -> so he level much faster also (has he never need to stop for heal).
And even in the late game the 5 move make the keshik a good scout and its 7+level means the lowest one still do some dommage... unlike the camel archer so you need to look at upgrade for it as it is useless except as garnison.

And "a better civ" ... monghol conquer the world at any difficulties ... we are lucky they do not have other advantage. The only "difficulty" as a monghol is survive early rush at deity ... and get enough horses so your cities have something to build while you conquer the world ... the only limitation i ever had on keshik were the number of horse i owned ... moghol pillage the wrld much more gold than arabia ever gave me ... (you can even sometoimes accept peace from one civ get much gold ... rampage the next one and come back because of the great movement...)

I agree arabia need more help and game are much more interesting with it as you do not have to rampagethe whole planet with your horde(s) (I think monghol is the only civ i fielded 3 armies against 3 different civ at the same time at deity ). You are barely stopped by bomber (just get some fighter to protect your keshhik )



the only games i played as monghol is -> rush chevalry (try to get 4 chariot and 1 cavalry before that) upgrade them to keshik and start war until you own all civ execept one (do not stop at your continent). Save any mounted unit you get from military civ to start your 2nd army... or build 1 or 2 naval unit and your 2nd army will conquer all coastl cities). Buy keshik whenever you have horse (keep 1 free if you have any militarist civ as friend to get a mounted unit)
buy/build some units you need for garnison if you do not raze enough...
when bomber appear there should be 1 competing civ remaining , as you choose your order of conquest it is the most feeble one at start AND one on the 2nd continent so your 2 armies are on his 2 sides ... you can have to check the tech and the build order to conquer the last capital if you conquered everything else in between). runaway civs on island were your 1st conquest after your continent (except if you need some wonder for the fun ... monghol are great wonder "builder" ... as the civ which built it cannot say differently

with the monghol the city you have started to raze are not razed that you have conquered the next one ...

 

[Gucumatz]

And thats a good point (being able to Kite with Keshiks)
I am just saying Camels are not that far off of Keshiks and possibly if used differently better in my opinion.

With Camels you don't get 50% the exp that you do with Keshiks - doesn't matter much though. With 4 movement and A level 5-6 Camel Archer it will do plenty of damage still. And since it has a higher base range and base combat it can take hits well into arts, gwbs, etc. And since Arabia can extract extra gold with Bazaars and their gold rich UA they can afford more Camel Archers for more double fronts and multiple attacks. Double oil does help too - flanking bombers with camel Archers (or Keshiks with bombers is pretty effective).
---
But with 4 movement points you can still avoid getting hit. That extra combat strength comes in help more often though in multi when you won't always get to retreat since its simultaneous turns without damage. There a Keshik can get hit and get really messed up.

I personally have the Keshik and Camel Archer as #1 and #2 (well not that order ) of best units.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

I missed something- is "kite-ing" slang for parthian tactics/shooting and running away?

 

[Udey1]

I missed something- is "kite-ing" slang for parthian tactics/shooting and running away?

Yes, it is a term for leading enemies on, and getting them to chase you in a straight line for easy shots. As if they are the "tail" of your unit (the kite).

 

[Mesix]

Movement bonus doesn't last that long before GWB's and artillery litter the battlefield, and comes when there are fewer trees and more roads (admittedly roads can't work in enemy territory). As a CS gift, sight is also decreased.

You contradict yourself here. When artillery liter the battle filed is precisely when you want unrestricted movement so you can take the artillery out. That is why the minutemen outclass other UU of the same era. They continue to get better as they are upgraded (retaining their bonus as they do). Once they reach Mechanized Infantry, they are nearly unstoppable.

 

[Mesix]

The reason I do not like the Keshik or the Camel Archer as much as the other remaining 4 is that they are Knight replacement units with ranged attack. As such, they upgrade into melee attacking units with worthless promotions for ranged attack. They can dominate in the era they are built (late Medieval to early Renaissance), but quickly become outdated with no upgrade path.

I find it interesting that the remaining units comprise 2 Knight replacements, 2 Crossbow replacements, and 2 Musketmen replacements. I'd bet that before G&K, neither of the Musketmen replacements would have received this much love. Allowing melee units to upgrade through Muskets and into the Infantry line really breathed new life into these UU.

 

[curwen]

my vote was for solo (and deity difficulty)...
on lower difficulty legion is good enough to rule the world ...
and against another human it becomes really hard to kite and depends a lot of the map and your neighbours... if some peeps love early rush (byzantine, greek, hun for example) you can e screwed before you can hope to get your keshit and as monghol you can only have 1 strategy WAR , but get an advantage only with keshit IF you have horses left (and a good human neighbour will know that and will stop you cold

 

[Crafty Bison]

You contradict yourself here. When artillery liter the battle filed is precisely when you want unrestricted movement so you can take the artillery out. That is why the minutemen outclass other UU of the same era. They continue to get better as they are upgraded (retaining their bonus as they do). Once they reach Mechanized Infantry, they are nearly unstoppable.

But bombers and mounted/armoured take out siege better. It's sorta like a cataphract: we already have melee to do that for us. Now we've lost horsemen. Ok so you don't lose your walls in the field but what it's great at is already done by another unit. Wheras noone soaks up pressure like a janissary, not even a carolean.
At this point the melee line is not very important. The minuteman is good for its time but the line as a whole runs out quickly (note I'm not upping the janissary either), and was never particularly powerful to begin with. it's a good unit in general but the others left are better (except CKN but I already downvoted a couple times). I am not contradicting myself.

edit: I suppose muskets do make for an easy beeline, so would come out earlier, though as a CS gift are you willing to change your tech plans for it? I wouldn't.

 

[Petiscator]

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 20
Keshik 28
Longbowman 36
Minutemen 6

I know I'm downvoting the same unit every time, but for me it is the worst of the list. I'm changing my upvotes because I can't seem to find a better one between the others.

Up for Janissary: I'm comparing the muskets now. I read what you guys said about movement, and partially, I agree, but (at least pre-patch) having a unit to fully heal upon killing is awesome! I loved the Jaguars, and these guys are the Jaguar 2.0. Mobility is sure nice, but if I want to get a fast unit to get that 0 HP city I'll use a horse. Using the combat modifier for attack, these Janissaries fight at 30 Strenght! (24 . 1.25) Just awesome to have a unit able to kill n' heal, being able not only to soak the cities attacks but to survive them fairly well. Talking about post patch, ok, this abillity can be replicated a little with pillaging, but you can do that (pillaging) with janissaries too.

Down for the Minutemen: I hate to say this, but for the same reason I stated in last post. There are two muskets left and I like one better than the other, sorry.

 

[woodshadows]

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 20
Keshik 29
Longbowman 32
Minutemen 6


hard to argue against the keshik, the only knock against it is that it requires a resource (horses) and on upgrade it loses most of its promotions, which shouldn't be too much of a problem, as long as you've managed to get march on them (which shouldn't be incredibly difficult), they become great cavalry units which combined with the khan will auto-heal 25 hp a turn even while moving/attacking (this in neutral or enemy territory), in friendly territory it's 35 - an immortal-esque healing, extra movement, march-promoted cavalry is a lot better than the other cavalry or lancer uu's.

longbows are nice, especially now that they have a good upgrade line, but they still suffer from not being able to shoot over terrain obstacles - which can be severely limiting and frustrating.

 

[Udey1]

..., but if I want to get a fast unit to get that 0 HP city I'll use a horse. ..

True, horses could fill in for city capture, and I do love horse units myself despite their counters. But why you want the fast moving melee unit is for ZOC issues, A horse cannot take and hold ground like a mainline melee unit can, and given MM's scout promo, they can snatch up the most defensible ground quickly, and keep it.

 

[Petiscator]

I agree, but the problem with the MM for me is mostly surviving in the ground they are occupying. It sounds weird, but I preffer Janissaries here, as they can take the opponent's occupied tile better (as they have +25 on attack) and heal completely when doing that, making them able to survive city bombardment + ranged units in most cases. I preffer horses for that, just waiting till the city is bombarded then taking it. I'm also analising the units alone, without the UAs bonuses so, for me, the MMs doesn't have the scouting promo (I'm including in my opinions CSs gifts). Just my opinion, though.

 

[duhu]

I don't see how Minutemen can be considered more powerful than Janissaries (more fun, maybe, because that's subjective). I mean the Janissary has a significant attack boost that applies to anywhere on the map and a healing power which the Minutemen does not have.

 

[smallfish]

I don't see how Minutemen can be considered more powerful than Janissaries (more fun, maybe, because that's subjective). I mean the Janissary has a significant attack boost that applies to anywhere on the map and a healing power which the Minutemen does not have.

Even across all-Jungle, mostly-Hill Highlands or Pangaea... or literally any kind of spot that has plenty of rough terrain and rivers? That no terrain penalty for Minutemen is pretty powerful there given injured Minutemen can retreat across those terrain barriers to heal before it becomes Jan healthpack.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 20
Keshik 30 (+1) Fast, Fast Generals, Fast Promotions, Strong, Dominating. The Best UU.
Longbowman 32
Minutemen 2 (-4) As good as Mech. Inf are when upgraded from MM, Mech. Inf upgraded from Janissaries are even better. That +25% attack is simply devastating. And then when you complete a kill? Full heal. Insane.

 

[Mesix]

It also doesn't take long for my Minutemen to get the march promotion to heal every turn. Since G&K, they can even be upgraded from Longswords with promotion intact. I love to take my swarm of Minutemen and make a mad rush for an enemy capital. With their mobility, artillery and ranged support is optional. Janissaries will be waiting near the river which stopped their movement while Minutemen have taken the capital already.