Unique Units elimination thread

[Skibbi]

All that matters is that Longbowman could get the Keshik before it can be hit!

 

[duhu]

Camel Archer 15
Carolean 16
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 41
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 23

Janissary as before...Minutemen bc the movement/sight bonus becomes less important as the game progresses.

 

[Crafty Bison]

All that matters is that Longbowman could get the Keshik before it can be hit!

No it can't. Not unless you got GW. And 3 tile LoS. Even then it's 2+2=4 vs 1+3=4.
It also can't kite, can't move and use logistics on the same turn, gets out manouvered, gets promoted slower and generates weaker GG's slower, though it does upgrade better.

 

[jacksone7]

Camel Archer 15
Carolean 17 (+1)
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 37 (-4)
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 23

I like the guaranteed heal from march more than the chance at healing if killing a unit.

 

[Snoopaloop]

nvm...thought we were off track on the vote.

 

[Gucumatz]

Camel Archer 16 (+1) As some of you know I am a huge fan of mobility - Which is why I love the Keshik and the Camel Archer. I believe the Camel Archer is on an overall better civ and its sturdiness to me is more useful in MP
Carolean 13 (-4) March is a nice promotion make no mistake. Its just that it is on the rifleman line, comes somewhat too late and too nearby units that will soon surpass it (artillery and great war bombers which eventually)
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 37
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 23

 

[Dreadnought]

Camel Archer 16
Carolean 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 33 (-4)
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 24 (+1)

Drill I plus mobility makes Minutemen stronger than the Janissary, even with the heal factored in.

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Camel Archer 17 (+1) I LOVE getting these guys from militaristic city states. Fast and hit hard, can execute Parthian tactics or pillage and attack. I think all the mounted units left are better than the gunpowder units... they're just faster, which means you can keep them alive longer.
Carolean 9 (-4) March is probably the most easily attainable "higher level" promotion available to all units. Compared to the +1 movement of minutemen and +25% attack and heal 50 upon kill, it is nothing special.
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 33
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 24

 

[Mesix]

Camel Archer 17
Carolean 19
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 29 (-4)
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 25 (+1)

If I am choosing between the two Musketmen replacements, the Minuteman will win every time. Ignoring terrain movement penalties and +1 sight are far better than a healing ability which everyone will be able to replicate with pillaging after the patch. There is nothing like a bunch of highly promoted Mechanized Infantry which ignore terrain penalties to finish off some opponents in the late game. Before G&K, Minutemen were a very good UU which required a concentrated effort to build a bunch when Gunpowder was reached and before Rifling. Now that all early game melee units can be upgraded into Minutemen and retain their promotions...the Minutemen is a borderline overpowered unit!

 

[Mesix]

Camel Archer 15
Carolean 16
Chu-Ko-Nu 39
Janissary 41
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 23

Janissary as before...Minutemen bc the movement/sight bonus becomes less important as the game progresses.

You're bashing on the Minutemen, and I'll bet you haven't used them very much. Your comment that the movement and sight bonus becomes less important as the game progresses seems like an analysis which is probably not based on experience. The +1 sight means that accompanying Artillery units can have line of sight to attack a city without putting a unit into harms way. The movement buff means that they can sweep through rivers and hills without slowing down and once they have promotions can attack multiple times each turn with no movement penalties. This last bit becomes better as the game progresses and the Minutemen unit is upgraded into Infantry and later Mechanized Infantry.

 

[Genghis.Khan]

Camel Archer 17
Carolean 15 (-4) Weakest unit left
Chu-Ko-Nu 40 (+1) Well for defense 5-6 Cho-KO-nus handle everithyng untill modern era (except on immortal/deity)
Janissary 29
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 25

 

[mintcandy]

All that matters is that Longbowman could get the Keshik before it can be hit!

If the player controlling the Keshik isn't budgeting movement points effectively AND the player controlling the Longbowman has spotters supporting the Longbowman, then theoretically yes, the Longbowman could hit a Keshik.

That's a lot of ifs, and assumes that one Longbowman attack is guaranteed to kill a fresh Keshik. I can assure you that isn't the case.

The key to effective use of the Keshik is to make sure it NEVER spends ALL of its movement points within possible attack range of enemy units.

When using Keshiks without other units, the best rule of thumb to avoid damage is to make sure each Keshik has a two tile radius safety net free of enemy units and enemy roads/rails when each Keshik spends all its movement points. Fog of war tiles and enemy cities also count as enemy units. This rule of thumb is NECESSARY to successfully complete the Mongolian scenario on higher difficulties.

With Archers, Composite Bowmen, Crossbowmen, Catapults and Trebuchets softening up cities, they HAVE to end their turn in range for a city to counter attack them.

On the other hand, Keshiks can soften up cities WITHOUT having to stay in a city's attack range.

And that's just one Keshik.

Imagine that you've only got one spot you can soften up a city from, but four Keshiks that are capable of moving into that spot and firing from it. If the player budgets his movement points wisely, all four Keshiks can soften that city up in the same turn. Now, if you replaced the Keshiks with Crossbowmen or Trebuchets, only one of those would be able to soften that city in a turn.

Simply put, the Keshik has the movement profile and ability to move AFTER attacking of mounted units, AND the ability to soften up city defenses without taking damage characteristic of ranged units. Moreover, massed Keshiks can attack without requiring them to all see the enemy at the end of movement that equivalent ranged and siege units do. The only thing that the Keshik CAN'T do is capture cities by itself.

Ugh, I think that's enough defense for the Keshik now.

 

[Tabarnak]

Camel Archer 18
Carolean 11
Chu-Ko-Nu 40
Janissary 29
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 25

Ranged units rule in GnK. Following that logic i absolutely need to downvote melee units before others(not always, but almost). My composition of army is always over 60% of ranged units.

And Camels are online before Caroleans. +1 for Camels. Also +1 for Arabia and his passive bonuses for a better recovery.

 

[Mesix]

Camel Archer 18
Carolean 1
Chu-Ko-Nu 40
Janissary 29
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 25

I accidentally added 10 to the Carolean tally in my post.

 

[duhu]

You're bashing on the Minutemen, and I'll bet you haven't used them very much. Your comment that the movement and sight bonus becomes less important as the game progresses seems like an analysis which is probably not based on experience. The +1 sight means that accompanying Artillery units can have line of sight to attack a city without putting a unit into harms way.

They don't need the extra sight to see the city. Unless the city is on the coast, a rarity on most maps, you're going to have to have a land unit near the city regardless to take the city. In any case...Minutemen do not upgrade into Artillery.

The movement buff means that they can sweep through rivers and hills without slowing down and once they have promotions can attack multiple times each turn with no movement penalties. This last bit becomes better as the game progresses and the Minutemen unit is upgraded into Infantry and later Mechanized Infantry.

The movement buff IS less effective as the game progresses. The reasons are very simple.
-There are plenty of roads at that point. You can take a city and literally have the next city surrounded on the next turn.
-There are fewer forests in the later part of the game, so movement is not hindered to the extent that it is in the earlier parts of the game.
-Late game units in general have faster movement.
-More variety to late game units makes movement not so much a necessity, when you've nukes, aircraft, etc, unaffected by terrain.
-Mid-late game, there are a ton of cities covering the map. Plenty of them aren't surrounded by defensible terrain positions, such mountains, hills, and rivers.

In any case, +25% attack + 50% healing > +1 sight, ignore terrain IMO.

EDIT: part of it, for me, is also being fun too. One of the annoying things about Domination is how slow it is (time wise). You attack, and then you have to heal/make more units all the time. The nice thing about Janissary is that it largely nullifies this, speeding up mid-late wars with a larger attack and a quick heal. It's a fun, strong UU, and not OP ridiculous to the point of Chu or Longbowmen, either. But I guess most people just like the strongest/most OP unit best.

 

[Snoopaloop]

Camel Archer 18
Carolean 1
Chu-Ko-Nu 40
Janissary 25
Keshik 26
Longbowman 41
Minutemen 26

Its hard to say it better than Mesix, whom I agree with when it comes to these two units.

+1 Minutemen - rushing through enemy forest, across their rivers is a huge military advantage, as well as their ability to see just a bit further into the opponents land (and thus see their potential counter attack easier). Pillaging hills/forest improvements after the patch will also be a bonus for the minutemen.

-4 Janissary - Heal after kill is great as well, but is very situational and dependent on the enemy accidenly leaving units lying out in the open for kills. I think this unit was much better pre-g+k when units were much less hardy.

 

[Snoopaloop]

In any case...Minutemen do not upgrade into Artillery.

The +1 sight means that accompanying Artillery units can have line of sight to attack a city without putting a unit into harms way.

The movement buff IS less effective as the game progresses. The reasons are very simple.
-There are plenty of roads at that point. You can take a city and literally have the next city surrounded on the next turn. - In enemy territory, does a newly built Janissary have a bonus that allow it to use enemy roads? Nope.
-There are fewer forests in the later part of the game, so movement is not hindered to the extent that it is in the earlier parts of the game. - True, lots of forests are removed.
-Late game units in general have faster movement. - These two units in DIRECT comparison have the same base movement. Minutemen upgraded units still can potentially move faster in straight paths through rough terrain, not having to go around it
-More variety to late game units makes movement not so much a necessity, when you've nukes, aircraft, etc, unaffected by terrain. You still need melee units to take cities (that are not nuked off the map). I don't see how minutemen upgrades being faster though rough terrian doesn't help more than a janissary upgrade here.
-Mid-late game, there are a ton of cities covering the map. Plenty of them aren't surrounded by defensible terrain positions, such mountains, hills, and rivers. Many of them are.

Just some of my ideas there.

 

[duhu]

In enemy territory, does a newly built Janissary have a bonus that allow it to use enemy roads? Nope.

What the heck are you talking about? I use enemy roads all the damn time with my own units (for ALL civs) marching through their territory. I have no idea what you mean by "newly built," when you can move every unit as soon as you build it. The only exception is if you bought them, and that applies to all civs.

-Late game units in general have faster movement. - These two units in DIRECT comparison have the same base movement. Minutemen upgraded units still can potentially move faster in straight paths through rough terrain, not having to go around it

Indeed. However you are missing the point. I never said the ability itself was useless, just less useful as the game progresses. The mere presence of air and missle units which ignore terrain anyway, makes the terrain movement less useful than what it was before there were any aircraft and missiles.

-Mid-late game, there are a ton of cities covering the map. Plenty of them aren't surrounded by defensible terrain positions, such mountains, hills, and rivers. -Many of them are.

And many of them are not. Depending on your objective, it isn't always necessarily to take the most fortified position. In Domination cases previously, I have avoided heavily fortified/populated cities intentionally and taken weak cities to get in such a position where I could take the Capital, the only fortified city of the bunch. Regardless, the mere presence of roads in late game situations makes ignore terrain VASTLY less useful, since a river or a hill won't slow you down if there's a road.

 

[mintcandy]

-More variety to late game units makes movement not so much a necessity, when you've nukes, aircraft, etc, unaffected by terrain. You still need melee units to take cities (that are not nuked off the map). I don't see how minutemen upgrades being faster though rough terrian doesn't help more than a janissary upgrade here.

Just some of my ideas there.

Playing devil's advocate, Paratroopers are available by the type nukes are prevalent, and Paratroopers can seize cities without being hindered by terrain at all. Ultimately, Paratroopers render the terrain movement of Minutemen irrelevant.

Of course, they need to start in friendly territory to be able to use their movement ability, unlike Minutemen.

 

[Udey1]

You're bashing on the Minutemen, and I'll bet you haven't used them very much. Your comment that the movement and sight bonus becomes less important as the game progresses seems like an analysis which is probably not based on experience. The +1 sight means that accompanying Artillery units can have line of sight to attack a city without putting a unit into harms way. The movement buff means that they can sweep through rivers and hills without slowing down and once they have promotions can attack multiple times each turn with no movement penalties. This last bit becomes better as the game progresses and the Minutemen unit is upgraded into Infantry and later Mechanized Infantry.

^this.

Also you are arguing against Mr. "its a dumb tireme."

Also, looking back, I see Skibbi is about solely responsible for the Keshik low score. Since it is now obvious he doesn't have a clue about their usage and tactics, should those even count? I suppose it doesn't matter, this isn't "official" or anything.