Unique Units elimination thread

[smallfish]

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 29
Janissary 16 (-4)
Keshik 30
Longbowman 32
Minutemen 3 (+1)

Minutemen are basically Terrain Combat Monsters - if you are in heavy jungle or hills (or both!), and a lot of rivers, you can pretty much run rings around an opposition without similar UUs or UAs. Boosted with extra sight, they can indeed be unstoppable when upgraded to Mech Inf and backed by Bombers/Artillery.

Janissaries are like Alex Mercer when it comes to using other units as healthpacks, except they can't ignore terrain like the Minutemen and good luck if you start on a map with 90% jungle hills!

 

[duhu]

Even across all-Jungle, mostly-Hill Highlands or Pangaea... or literally any kind of spot that has plenty of rough terrain and rivers? That no terrain penalty for Minutemen is pretty powerful there given injured Minutemen can retreat across those terrain barriers to heal before it becomes Jan healthpack.

Janissaries still get a combat bonus on rough terrain just like every other unit in the game except mounts, just not as much as Minutemen would (this is assuming that both units were just created and have fought no battles yet). And Minutemen can't attack and then flee on the same turn. The beauty of the Janissary is that unlike the Minuteman, it is healing a whopping 50 every time it kills a unit, and it's attack bonus is larger than the Minuteman. Nor does it's attack bonus only apply on certain terrain, unlike Minutemen.

 

[duhu]

It also doesn't take long for my Minutemen to get the march promotion to heal every turn.

I'm not sure how that makes any sense, since Minutemen do not get bonus exp.

I love to take my swarm of Minutemen and make a mad rush for an enemy capital. With their mobility, artillery and ranged support is optional. Janissaries will be waiting near the river which stopped their movement while Minutemen have taken the capital already.

Say what?

Answer me this: What percentage of tiles on the map are covered by rivers and hills? How many and how long are roads on the map, nullifying terrain movement penalties? And unless the entire army is on the other side of the world (which not even a noob does), there is no way in hell the simple ability of ignore terrain is going to allow a bunch of scrubby Minutemen to take a Capital without before being resisted by Janissaries within 1-2 turns.

Whereas +1 sight and ignore terrain becomes less useful as the game progresses, as I noted earlier, +25% attack and a free heal for every defeated unit never loses it's usefulness. In fact, one may be even able to make the argument that the Janissaries become even more powerful as the game progresses, since +25% attack becomes a more significant attack boost the higher the base attack is.

 

[smallfish]

Janissaries still get a combat bonus on rough terrain just like every other unit in the game except mounts, just not as much as Minutemen would. And Minutemen can't attack and then flee on the same turn. The beauty of the Janissary is that unlike the Minuteman, it is healing a whopping 50 every time it kills a unit, and it's attack bonus is larger than the Minuteman. Nor does it's attack bonus only apply on certain terrain, unlike Minutemen.

Except the Janissary can't also attack twice on the same turn, and if its target the Minuteman survives due to promotions or terrain, said Minuteman can also flee the scene across a river or hill. Meanwhile Jan has to lose movement points if it wants to chase down its healthpack.

 

[smallfish]

Whereas +1 sight and ignore terrain becomes less useful as the game progresses, as I noted earlier, +25% attack and a free heal for every defeated unit never loses it's usefulness. In fact, one may be even able to make the argument that the Janissaries become even more powerful as the game progresses, since +25% attack becomes a more significant attack boost the higher the base attack is.

They get nuked or obliterated by Bomber/artillery

 

[Seabastian Civ]

Are you guys debating SP or MP efficacy? Because simultaneous turns obviously skews the balance of power toward the more maeuverable unit, in my experience.

 

[duhu]

Except the Janissary can't also attack twice on the same turn, and if its target the Minuteman survives due to promotions or terrain, said Minuteman can also flee the scene across a river or hill. Meanwhile Jan has to lose movement points if it wants to chase down its healthpack.

If you're talking about 1 vs 1, I'm not going to go chasing units that flee unless I know I can catch them. And if they had just fought, the Janissary unit would have the slightly numbers, because of the higher attack (although obviously this depends on circumstances- who attacked first, the terrain, whether the defender was fortified at the time, etc). In which case with a Janissary, if I haven't healed already from a promotion, I'd just fortify and heal, while sitting there waiting. The Minutemen would be forced to do the same thing, since their numbers are fewer than the Janissary at that point and wouldn't have high enough strength to take on a fortified Janissary unit, least of all the ensuing Janissary counterattack.

 

[duhu]

They get nuked or obliterated by Bomber/artillery

So can every other unit and city in the game. What's your point?

 

[Tabarnak]

2 pages of discussions within last 12 hours

Current wars : Minutemen-Janissary, Keshik-Camel, Longbowman-Chu-ko-nu(this one is sort of friendly )

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 25
Janissary 16
Keshik 30
Longbowman 32
Minutemen 4

Minutemen : I really like to catch that tile before my opponent in mp Can make a huge difference. And that sight bonus serves him well. Pillage these tiles!(next patch)

Chu-Ko-Nu : First time i downvote this unit. Because of gatling guns. I slightly prefer a gatling gun shooting once but at 2 tiles away then shooting twice but close from a unit. Can dodge many hits doing this.

I like stealthy weapons...

 

[smallfish]

So can every other unit and city in the game. What's your point?

I guess that a Mech Minuteman can be in a far more survivable position as an all-terrain capable spotter for bombers, artillery and nukes than Blacklight but otherwise generic Jan Mech Inf? There's only so much utility Jan Mech Inf have at that point in game, you might as well spam generic Mech Inf instead.

 

[Gucumatz]

How much will the reduction in strength/range of gatling Gun's in the patch effect Cho-Ko-Nuhs/Longbowmen too I wonder.

I haven't heard discussion about that in here - I am curious to hear opinions.

 

[duhu]

I always though Chu and Longbowman were kind of dull the way they are. I mean, when first made they're just pretty powerful units, but once you start upgrading them, they become ridiculous and sort of OP.

 

[jacksone7]

I'm not sure how that makes any sense, since Minutemen do not get bonus exp.

By starting with Drill I it only takes three upgrades to get March. Janissaries need four upgrades.

How many and how long are roads on the map, nullifying terrain movement penalties?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you do not get benefits from moving on enemies roads. MM do keep their movement upgrade in enemy territory.

 

[Udey1]

Answer me this: What percentage of tiles on the map are covered by rivers and hills? How many and how long are roads on the map, nullifying terrain movement penalties? ...

... Janissaries become even more powerful as the game progresses, since +25% attack becomes a more significant attack boost the higher the base attack is.

1. The percentage doesn't matter. Many cities are based on rivers, many capitals are based on rivers, and any city worth having probably has an abundance of hills.
2. Roads cannot be utilized in enemy terrain.

More "powerful" is not just a number modifier.

These (rifle) units as they upgrade can utilize the mobility offered by MM to escape death from the later long range arty and bombers/ships, and are better able to blitzkrieg through the map, or to snipe opportune targets that a Jan upgraded unit could never accomplish.

You are also talking/comparing the two units as if they are in a direct fight. Yes, the janissary has bigger numbers, so given a flat grassland arena with only musketman v musketman the janissary has the edge, but when is this ever the case? This is paper tiger-ing.

You can say "sight and ignore terrain is less useful later" but it is actually more useful. Later in the game total unit numbers are greater and units with more "abilities" offer more versatility than just a number buff.

 

[duhu]

1. The percentage doesn't matter. Many cities are based on rivers, many capitals are based on rivers, and any city worth having probably has an abundance of hills.
2. Roads cannot be utilized in enemy terrain.

The percentage does matter, since most battles are not fought at the gate of a city, but rather en-route there. There is and always will be more flatland than rough terrain, and in any case all the extra movement does is give an extra 1, maybe 2 turns, depending on positioning. But there are many variables here...and regardless, Janissary gets a larger boost versus cities, so in that regard they can take them faster.

The road thing, yeah I don't think they can, I think I was thinking prior to G&K's. Regardless, roads in Friendly territory still nullify terrain movement.

These (rifle) units as they upgrade can utilize the mobility offered by MM to escape death from the later long range arty and bombers/ships, and are better able to blitzkrieg through the map, or to snipe opportune targets that a Jan upgraded unit could never accomplish.

See, I'm still not getting the logic to this.

Minutemen ignore terrain (NOT +1 movement, there is a BIG difference). And to attack they have to be adjacent to the enemy unit, nor can they move after the attack. So I fail to see how it is "sniping," when they will be counterattacked every time by the stronger Janissary unit.

You are also talking/comparing the two units as if they are in a direct fight. Yes, the janissary has bigger numbers, so given a flat grassland arena with only musketman v musketman the janissary has the edge, but when is this ever the case? This is paper tiger-ing.

lol no it isn't. Even in rough terrain, Janissaries still get a bonus just like every other unit, just not quite as much as the Minutemen. Whereas the Janissary gets a free 25% bonus to attack, a far larger strength bonus. Additionally, Minutemen do not have a free heal.

You can say "sight and ignore terrain is less useful later" but it is actually more useful. Later in the game total unit numbers are greater and units with more "abilities" offer more versatility than just a number buff.

Nah, number buff every time. More versatility, maybe I can agree with that if you word it that way. But usefulness?

Really, I don't see how this is hard to grasp. At some point you're going to have to fight the enemy, and when the enemy has a significant attack boost in addition a large healing power when killing units, that is hard to stop with a simple "we can ignore tur-rain." This is ESPECIALLY true late-game, when your territory at that point is at it's largest with roads flooding the map, in addition to there being less rough terrain than there was earlier.

 

[Mesix]

I'm not sure how that makes any sense, since Minutemen do not get bonus exp.

Say what?

Answer me this: What percentage of tiles on the map are covered by rivers and hills? How many and how long are roads on the map, nullifying terrain movement penalties? And unless the entire army is on the other side of the world (which not even a noob does), there is no way in hell the simple ability of ignore terrain is going to allow a bunch of scrubby Minutemen to take a Capital without before being resisted by Janissaries within 1-2 turns.

Whereas +1 sight and ignore terrain becomes less useful as the game progresses, as I noted earlier, +25% attack and a free heal for every defeated unit never loses it's usefulness. In fact, one may be even able to make the argument that the Janissaries become even more powerful as the game progresses, since +25% attack becomes a more significant attack boost the higher the base attack is.

We get it. You don't know how to use Minutemen properly. You don't have to explain again how you still haven't figured it out.

 

[duhu]

We get it. You don't know how to use Minutemen properly. You don't have to explain again how you still haven't figured it out.

It's cute when you try so hard.

 

[Mesix]

That's just it...since I know how to use Minutemen, I don't have to try as hard. Give America another go and you might find that a Modern Era domination is much easier than you had experienced in the past.

 

[Snoopaloop]

Camel Archer 13
Chu-Ko-Nu 25
Janissary 12
Keshik 30
Longbowman 32
Minutemen 5


Very interesting, the three seperate battles we have here. Range is just to powerful - though I do no prefer ranged units with melee upgrade paths - so you can guess how my votes will be going

I feel like the last of the melee (both great units) should start to lose out compared to the ranged ones.

+1 Minutemen. An amazing useful ability that barely diminishes over time/upgrades.

-4 Janissary. I really like the +25% bonus, but the 50 health for "killing" an enemy unit is more situational to me. Units die less often in G+K, resulting in less heals than in the vanilla version.

I'll take the mobility over situational healing every time.

EDIT: Plus I feel like the +health for pillaging will even more so favor the minutemen. Yes, the situational pillage heal will be the same for both, but the minuteman will more easily pillage tiles on rough terrian/across rivers undeniably.

 

[duhu]

That's just it...since I know how to use Minutemen, I don't have to try as hard. Give America another go and you might find that a Modern Era domination is much easier than you had experienced in the past.

Except I do know how to use Minutemen. To get the full benefit of ignore terrain, you try as often as possible to always move through rough terrain/hills/rivers, so long as it remains tactical to do so. You can also get a small benefit from sight from this, but this is brief since enemy units aren't going to stay in one place and will move to your position. America is a top 10 civ for me. Besides which, that is not an argument. Anyone can say that someone just doesn't know how to use a unit. lulz

Also, I have only downvoted Minutemen once. If I recall it was in it's late 30's at one point. It's not as if I hate the unit or anything, whereas Janissary has been getting the triple-gang bang from specific posters over and over again, in consecutive votes. What's most amusing however is that 4/6 of the last upvotes for the Minutemen also downvoted Janissary.