Unit design

[Ploeperpengel]

I don't think it's that his torso is short, so much as he's hunched over so much (as Orcs do). You're right that his legs are straighter than they should be, though, and I'll fix that at some point. Like I said, now that I know how possible it is to modify animations, I can mess with him a lot more. It's just a matter of patience. Maybe I'll teach Woodelf how to do it and get him to be an animation slave.

Heh, ok I'll wait for the final animation to give my final judgement and probably it's easier to judge as well if you see him in game than on screenie. But still I'm not sure if you compare to this pic in example(the painting not the minis)
http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/who-are/1/
But I will be patient

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Thats great neener!

 

[seZereth]

Heh, ok I'll wait for the final animation to give my final judgement and probably it's easier to judge as well if you see him in game than on screenie. But still I'm not sure if you compare to this pic in example(the painting not the minis)
http://uk.games-workshop.com/orcsandgoblins/who-are/1/
But I will be patient

the one on the pic is the perfect orc for me!!! neener, the model looks very good in itself, but for a warhammer orc his skin colour is way too bright, it should be more like the one on the pic and yes his legs are too long, all in all it reminds me more of a warcraft orc than an warhammer orc. so these small changes and we got some great orcs!

 

[woodelf]

I will gladly be a slave if taught animations!

 

[neener]

the one on the pic is the perfect orc for me!!! neener, the model looks very good in itself, but for a warhammer orc his skin colour is way too bright, it should be more like the one on the pic and yes his legs are too long, all in all it reminds me more of a warcraft orc than an warhammer orc. so these small changes and we got some great orcs!

Well I made his skin the colour it is because everybody said the Night Goblin looked much better with higher contrast skin. I asked people for feedback then and it was unanimous that high-contrast, almost cartoonish skin looked better. Everyone said it worked better in the game. Now that's not the case?

 

[woodelf]

Teach me Obi-Wan-neener.

I'd like to see that unit in a group of 10, sized to orc size, and in game before dulling it too much.

 

[neener]

Is there an easy way to increase the formation of the Orc in my game, so I can retake a screenshot? And what scale do you think the Orc should be? Right now he's 0.35, which I think is normal for humans. I didn't want to make him TOO big since there are still Black Orcs and Ogres to come, and I also didn't think increasing the size to, say, 0.40 would actually make any noticeable difference.

 

[woodelf]

If you sub him in for any warrior won't that group him into a formation of 10? I'd try 0.30 (if humie is 0.35) and see how he looks. At that scale I think this color works to make him show at all.

I may have misunderstood your question though since I'm on hold and listening to elevator music....

 

[neener]

If you sub him in for any warrior won't that group him into a formation of 10?

Apparently not. I'm pretty sure I subbed him for a warrior in the first place and he's only showing as a single unit. I'll try find another one to use and see if it changes things.

I'd try 0.30 (if humie is 0.35) and see how he looks.

Wait, what? You want him to be smaller than a human? I assumed when you said "sized to Orc size" that you meant he looked too small?

 

[seZereth]

Is there an easy way to increase the formation of the Orc in my game, so I can retake a screenshot? And what scale do you think the Orc should be? Right now he's 0.35, which I think is normal for humans. I didn't want to make him TOO big since there are still Black Orcs and Ogres to come, and I also didn't think increasing the size to, say, 0.40 would actually make any noticeable difference.

well, if you want formations, try and replace an existing unit graphic in the mod which already has formations (almost every one)
First of all, i dont like cartoonish style in warhammer... but if the rest wants a marvell comic, well serve them
and its not contrast, but its the colour-tone, it could get more into the direction tof that orc pic ploe linked, and having still some contrast... perhaps i can show u what i mean when i get that baby into my hands you know when you skin it with photoshop, you make the whole skin one layer and then you can change colour on the fly, by which it is very easy to agree on other skin colours later.

 

[woodelf]

, maybe I'm confusing orcs and goblins. My bad.

Poor neener, we keep confusing him.

 

[neener]

First of all, i dont like cartoonish style in warhammer...

Six and a half million people worldwide seem to like it, but whatever.

well, if you want formations, try and replace an existing unit graphic in the mod which already has formations (almost every one)

I did that, Sezereth. How do you think I got him into the game in the first place? He's currently in the group "OPEN IDLE FORTIFY(10)", but he shows up as one unit.

and its not contrast, but its the colour-tone, it could get more into the direction tof that orc pic ploe linked, and having still some contrast...

No, not really. Not the same amount of contrast anyway. When you modify the contrast of the entire picture in Photoshop it lets you also lighten or darken the whole thing. I was leaving that slider at 0 because I think making the texture too dark looks stupid and destroys almost all the detail. But if it makes you happy, I'll test it out.

Light:

Dark:

perhaps i can show u what i mean when i get that baby into my hands you know when you skin it with photoshop, you make the whole skin one layer and then you can change colour on the fly, by which it is very easy to agree on other skin colours later.

Yes. Believe it or not I've used Photoshop before.

 

[woodelf]

I love him. Did I mention that?

 

[seZereth]

First of all i didnt want to offend you in any way! your 3d skills and your texturing skills are awesome, but i simply dont like the color tone, so ignore me, just release anything the way you want it to look like and i can change it myself, if i want another look in my game.

Six and a half million people worldwide seem to like it, but whatever.

i dont think wh itself has a cartoonish look, but it has 100 different artists and by that you cant say that it has a constant look at all (furthermore the drawn pictures are allways way darker atmosphered than the painted miniatures)

I did that, Sezereth. How do you think I got him into the game in the first place? He's currently in the group "OPEN IDLE FORTIFY(10)", but he shows up as one unit.

well, you need a unitentry in the unitinfo.xml, and there his meshgroupsize has to be set to 10. or you replace the files of an existing unit (like the warrior or whatever) in the art/unit folders and then you dont have to change any xml or at least only the artdefines one to link to the new kfm file.

No, not really. Not the same amount of contrast anyway. When you modify the contrast of the entire picture in Photoshop it lets you also lighten or darken the whole thing. I was leaving that slider at 0 because I think making the texture too dark looks stupid and destroys almost all the detail. But if it makes you happy, I'll test it out.

i never said you should simply make it darker. and you are right with the sliderchange you make it look more stupid. you shouldnt use contrast/lighter/darker, but the colour/saturation/brightness sliders and adjust it there to change the colour to a more brown/yellow look, like the colour of that orc on the picture. EDIT:

you see he has some contrast here too, his upperarm/shoulder is way lighter than the rest and here you could bring more contrast in his face and on the rest too, but in the same solour tone

But i dont want you to waste your time with this, please do what you want and what you like yourself! i am very thankfull that you do all this stuff at all!

Yes. Believe it or not I've used Photoshop before.

hell i never doubted that, and you are way better in that than i am, but you didnt understand what i said, cause you changed the contrast and stuff of the whole picture and not of his skin. (the greentone)

So, sorry again for the missunderstanding here. you rock man and well, try to paint colours and stuff you (not the others) think fit best for an orc

 

[neener]

Bah, now you make me feel guilty, Sez!

First of all i didnt want to offend you in any way! your 3d skills and your texturing skills are awesome, but i simply dont like the color tone, so ignore me, just release anything the way you want it to look like and i can change it myself, if i want another look in my game.

I honestly don't mind criticism, I even positively encourage it, I just need to understand the criticism! Stuff like when you asked for a more 'connected' UV unwrap just confused me, because it didn't make any sense to me. That's all.

i dont think wh itself has a cartoonish look, but it has 100 different artists and by that you cant say that it has a constant look at all (furthermore the drawn pictures are allways way darker atmosphered than the painted miniatures)

Yeah, I think I'm trying to make the models appear more like the miniatures in-game rather than the paintings. To be honest I don't know how well the painting-look would work in the game, because it's hard to make a single unit look dark and atmospheric in the middle of a significantly bright-coloured game (which, make no mistake, Civ 4 is).

well, you need a unitentry in the unitinfo.xml, and there his meshgroupsize has to be set to 10. or you replace the files of an existing unit (like the warrior or whatever) in the art/unit folders and then you dont have to change any xml or at least only the artdefines one to link to the new kfm file.

It's okay, Gerikes fixed it. I simply had Single Unit Graphics turned on in the options menu. Nobody ever told me to turn it off!

i never said you should simply make it darker. and you are right with the sliderchange you make it look more stupid. you shouldnt use contrast/lighter/darker, but the colour/saturation/brightness sliders and adjust it there to change the colour to a more brown/yellow look, like the colour of that orc on the picture. EDIT:

you see he has some contrast here too, his upperarm/shoulder is way lighter than the rest and here you could bring more contrast in his face and on the rest too, but in the same solour tone

Hmm. I think we have different opinions on what "high contrast" constitutes. In my opinion that picture has incredibly low contrast. The difference between the dark and light areas is very slight. However, you're right that the Hue is different, and THAT is something I definitely understand where you're coming from. So I adjusted it to be as close as I could really get it. You could be right that it looks better, too.

When you look at this new one for long enough, and then look at the first one, it makes that original one look positively flourescent. I do think, however, that you lose some of the details (like the face) and the muscles look a little bit less realistic. I think maybe a combination of the two? Like so:

What do you think?

So yes, now that I understand what you mean about the actual Hue of the skin, and not the Darkness, I think you have a good point.

 

[woodelf]

That looks spectacular. The bottom one does jump out at you a bit more, which is good IMO.

 

[seZereth]

you know i am not a native english speaker, so its sometimes very hard to express technically stuff like that in the right way. but i am glad that i could point you to where i wanted
so, the skincolour is now way better and i personally like the orcs standing on the very left side of your first picture (of your last post) better, but in generall, you should go with the ones from the second picture, as you are right, that a higher contrast means better visibility and details. but i would suggest (ignore this if you already do it) that you use the highlighting brush and the reduce-saturation brush for contrast instead of the contrast slider, i personally have better experiences with it.

and well, to show you that i cant do any better, if yo want to see a orc/goblin skincolour i created, look at those from the goblins in the game. (the orcaxe/swordboys which are already in were painted in a rush, so dont compare those ) and tell me if you think those are too uncontrasted too.

 

[neener]

The last alternative I can think of is to use the flatter, 'duller' colours for the body, and only apply contrast to the Orc's face, because that's really the part that I'm worried about being ignored. This is roughly how that would look:

It doesn't have to be EXACTLY those shades, because I think the difference is a little too noticeable between the body and head, but you get the idea, hopefully.

 

[woodelf]

Yeah, too noticeable, but the contrast is a good thing --- just too much.

But I'm happy just to see them at all so I'm a fanboy and proud of it.

 

[seZereth]

The last alternative I can think of is to use the flatter, 'duller' colours for the body, and only apply contrast to the Orc's face, because that's really the part that I'm worried about being ignored.
...
It doesn't have to be EXACTLY those shades, because I think the difference is a little too noticeable between the body and head, but you get the idea, hopefully.

Now we are coming together and i fuly agree with you on that way. give hte pieces you want better contrast, perhaps no oversaturation or screaming colours, and make the rest a bit less shiny. so some slight adjustments to the orc and its perfect