Unit Limit Per Tile

i think this change is nice for testing but making an special AI for it requires far too much work as the military AI must think totally different. best is to let that problem to the Civ5 devs.

@CivFührer:
Afforess defined the max units per tile per team. so even if unit per tile limit is 1 there sill can be 20 different ships on a single tile as long as they are all from different civs.
 
Like most changes that fundamentally alter combat, my question is: Can you make the AI not ******ed about it? I'd love to have multiple 10-stack armies coming in that I'd have to deal with on my own terms, but if the AI just sends in a 10-stack followed directly behind by a 10-stack, or worse, the stragglers it can't fit into the stack just marching along haphazardly waiting for something to die so they can take its place in the main stack, it won't provide any benefit at all.

Since it is not an officially supported nor recommended; no.

Few things:
A. Love the idea but is there a file where we can change the limit?

Uh, you have seen the RoM Settings page, correct?
 
another thing that changes: siege weapons don't do excessive harm to stacks anymore if there are no large stack possible. makes battles harder for humans who always have one or two sieges weapons to waste before their main force finishes the greatly weakened defenders. that's my main reason to dislike Civ4 large stacks: results in too easy winning!

Maybe the siege weapons can damage multiple tiles ;)
 
I support the idea. There should be a limit per tile, but definetely not "1".

I would go for 15-25 limit (including city tile) to be realistic on one side, and keep the strategic
dimension of combined forces alive.

Anyway, it is obvious, that this feature should be optional :)
 
The RoM Settings page in game just needs to be able to make the limit go higher, for those of us who want 20 or so stacksize. :)
 
yeah, indeed stack size limit of <5 is prombematic in Civ4 - especially with AI. Civ4 AI is just not made for it. a moderate limit between 5 and 15 seems to work much better and fits better to the current game. setting it above 15 seems to me a bit too high to see much of a difference - or at least that's my impression. but yeah i agree on the option change: between 1 and 10 the step in the step in the selection should be one, two between 10 and 20 and five above. (e.g. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,14,16,18,20,25,30,35,40,45,50).

but i think when someone tested the lower limits he should post which number is the minimum for the AI not to fail epically and so Afforess can remove these options due to unplayability.
 
Currently, lower limits are unplayable but that's because cities are impossible to attack if they're full.

Yes, if you actually selected 1UPT, war is done with as no one can battle.

So, I tried 5UPT and ran into the same problem against an enemy SoD which had 5 units but also with a city that had such a large defensive bonus due to it building more than five units (archers) to be exact.

The city became unattackable.

Anyway, I already read the thread and heard about the change becoming x Unit Per Team on Tile (xUPTT?).

So yeah, it was fun to test out but a small city-state would be buggered in a 1UPT situation as it can only 9 units at most.

I do like the defensive retreat option thing though.
 
With Patch D, I thought I'll go ahead and put my thoughts down in this thread.

First of all, I'm playing 2UPT which is close to 1UPT but is more flexible due to lack of unit swapping and slow movements.

First of all, units can still stack in the city. At first, I thought this was completely unfair game play wise until I realized that once you take those units out of the city, you can't put more than the limit back into the city. Moreover, you can't move out 5 at a time onto the same tile. This doesn't apply to naval units (which can stack in a city even after leaving but can only be 2UPT tile outside a city) and workers. I haven't passed the Classical Age to test more. Also, spies are exempt as far as I know.

Secondly, wars are now far longer and involve more thought as to where your units go, especially as maneuvering in tight places can be a complete :):):):):). The war is also fought largely in the field meaning promos like Woodsman and Guerrilla come in handy in the early game (again, still in Classical Age).

As a matter of fact, terrain and defensive bonuses have completely change how I approach wars. For instance, in my Duel game right not, I took out my only rival on a duel map, the Abyssinian. Due to me still being a minor nation, I didn't win conquest and by the time I got Writing, there was another civilization, the Babylonians.

There is only one copper resource as far as I know and they had it. For a large part of the war, I was on the defensive. Spearmen were useless and because I had to choose carefully which units I wanted on border defense, I stopped producing them. Spearmen are easily killed by Bowmen (+50% against Melee) and Axemen. So, I spammed archers.

Not the greatest but it would have to do. An invasion and almost punched through my frontline but I had archers on either side so by the time they got through, their army was bleeding that it took little to take it out.

So, finally, I decide to attack. Note: I had a lot of archers and the difficulty was a step or two above noble (Monarch I believe). Babylon had two cities, both coastal cities. Now, I still had a few spearmen somehow but overall, they were deadweight. I surrounded Babylon the best I could but it was difficult because I simply couldn't put archers in the open grasslands where they would be massacred by axeman. I had the same problem in Akkad, which had less room to play around in.

Long story short, after an unsuccessful assault on Babylon, my army came home licking their wounds. Later, Babylon stopped being a minor, I claimed their copper resource which was on the border and gave them a tech to end the war. Eventually, we did go back to war due to them building a city close to my capital and I razed that city (again, couldn't just smash my way in there but Siege Ships really helped out).

Now, a problem I've noticed, and one of the only problems I noticed, is that the AI didn't seem to go on the assault often but this may be because the AI rather slug it out in the city then attack the well-fortified archers that are launching volleys from every direction constantly.


Another fun thing about this is that I'm actually using Surround and Destroy for a change since before, it was easier to just smash cities from one direction. I've probably pillaged and claimed more territory than I have in all my other games put together as I tried to cut off cities and starve Babylon.

Right now, I'm unsure, but are tiles with enemy units on it still worked?
 
First of all, I'm playing 2UPT which is close to 1UPT but is more flexible due to lack of unit swapping and slow movements.

yep, 1UpT is unplayable because you can't swap units. this option should be removed as it doesn't really work. i personally prefer 3UpT but i play on larger maps and snail or eternity thus there are much more units in the later game which all need space.

First of all, units can still stack in the city. At first, I thought this was completely unfair game play wise until I realized that once you take those units out of the city, you can't put more than the limit back into the city. Moreover, you can't move out 5 at a time onto the same tile. This doesn't apply to naval units (which can stack in a city even after leaving but can only be 2UPT tile outside a city) and workers. I haven't passed the Classical Age to test more. Also, spies are exempt as far as I know.

that bugs me. i think newly produced units should not go over the limit - never. however i suppose that it's ok if the unit limit per tile is twice as high as normal for cities.

[...]I surrounded Babylon the best I could but it was difficult because I simply couldn't put archers in the open grasslands where they would be massacred by axeman. [...]

lol, that's true. sieging a city became much more complicated as you just can't park your stack on the tile with most defense. bringing in multiple siege weapons to lower city defense faster has the big problem that they need space and it means that your siege lines are much more vulnerable to counter offensives (siege weapons aren't the best defenders).

what i have also observed is that specialization promotions are much more powerful with these settings as you won't encounter stacks with each unit type on the same plot. it really makes you think how to compose your troops on one tile... quite a lot of strategy that comes with a small change.
 
yep, 1UpT is unplayable because you can't swap units. this option should be removed as it doesn't really work. i personally prefer 3UpT but i play on larger maps and snail or eternity thus there are much more units in the later game which all need space.

Its a problem on Eternity/Duel already but that's because I overproduced units. :lol:



that bugs me. i think newly produced units should not go over the limit - never. however i suppose that it's ok if the unit limit per tile is twice as high as normal for cities.

I wouldn't mind doubled the limit or being increased through technology and buildings. So far, I haven't had to deal with a Stalingrad-level bloodbath taking every city (except maybe the capital).

I mean, it would be nice if it wasn't possible to garrison too many units in a city (maybe make it possible to increase the number with technology) because after the Babylonians were destroyed in the field, the battle still ended up in the city. Still, it was nice. Currently, the hardest area to take down was an unholy combination of hamlet/village+forest+hill which had a defensive modifier of 85% but that problem should be solved in Patch E given the way discussion is going in the other thread.

lol, that's true. sieging a city became much more complicated as you just can't park your stack on the tile with most defense. bringing in multiple siege weapons to lower city defense faster has the big problem that they need space and it means that your siege lines are much more vulnerable to counter offensives (siege weapons aren't the best defenders).

I had the same problem with archers. Maybe increase the range of all ranged units by one but make it so bombarding certain things is difficult from extreme range (that way artillery couldn't take out an important mine from three tiles away but could at one).

Or we could keep it the way it is. I know on 2UPT, if I had an archer and a trebuchet on a tile but the rest of the city was surrounded, the enemy would either come out and attack the weak spot in the attacker's lines (which would cause them to lose the defensive bonus and not return to the city) or they keep letting me attack.

what i have also observed is that specialization promotions are much more powerful with these settings as you won't encounter stacks with each unit type on the same plot. it really makes you think how to compose your troops on one tile... quite a lot of strategy that comes with a small change.

Too bad that the Babylonians were push-overs in the end. Most of the fighting was on their turf and I captured Babylon and razed a few other cities before I got my Conquest victory. The most threatning unit they had was Hamilcar Bacar who took massive amounts of arrow spam to crush and I didn't want to fight him in the field (Babylon got busy against barbarians I suppose because that unit had Medic I, Beserkers I-III, Combat I, Woodsman I, and more) I wanted to see how the AI starts wars with xUPT. Should be interesting to see several stacks assaulting me instead of one big one. One big one I know how to handle, siege unit spam and clean-up but several small stacks+surround and destroy? Should be interesting.

Also, thank goodness ships don't stack. I remember in vanilla Civ4 having almost all my improvements around my capital being destroyed by AI guided missile spam and jet fighter zergs and being unable to attack thanks to the huge number of battleships and missile cruisers they had.

I started a new game. Hopefully, this one lasts past the Classical Age. Then again, it's Tiny Aboria so I get to see more use of Woodsman.
 
Just started another war on a tiny map, three civilizations. I declared war on the Hittites who are jerks and immediatly cried to Celtia so now I have to deal with both of them (which, oddly enough, hasn't been too bad).

Celtia, despite having a military roughly the same size as mine and a technological advantage (unlike the Hittites whom I'm beating through surprise and numbers, but certainly not tech), seems reluctant to send the bulk of its force at me and since I'm genre-savvy, I had a lot of archers waiting for whatever Celtia sent at me and Boudica hit the wall hard and made a small crack in it but the problem was that instead of only having two archers shooting at the pikeman and archer, there was now SIX archers tagging them.

Meanwhile, I had the uniquely irritating task of moving my amphibious force to surround the Hittite capital. Aboria has, at most, one tile of coastline which leads to demented game of follow the leader. Triemes in front, followed by another set, followed by the four galleys, followed by a stack of siege ships. It took a while to get the troops off the ships so I think that surprise invasions have been effectively killed as it took me three times longer to even get the troops off the ships.

The Celts gained Longbowmen at some point and now I'm promoting troops on the border with Cover but only occasionally as, again, Celtia hasn't hit me as hard as I thought they would.

I've taken one Hittite city (a holy one and I burned it to the ground for good measure). One part of the army is marching towards another coastal city which is being bombarded and it's going to take a while to take down the capital since I need to whittle down its defenses. Luckily, I've cut the Hittites off from both their sources of iron AND their copper.

Meanwhile, Celtia is wondering what in the world to do. We're still roughly even but if they try to send their forces into the giant wall of arrows again, the balance will shift quickly.

So, another world war. Fun. I'm pillaging the countryside to keep my economy afloat and I'm relying on spies to catch up technologically. Boudica is ready to pay me to end the war as are the Hittites but if the war against the Hittites go well, I might just continue the momentum, get "behind" the Celts and smash their cities one by one. At worst, taking the capital is so costly that I have to go home licking my wounds OR I have to end the war because my pillaging isn't going to keep the economy afloat for long. I plan on getting the techs I want so I'll save one city for the Hittites and burn the rest. Hopefully, I can get me some longbows.

I find it ironic that the 8 axemen surrounding the Hittites capital are using axes made with Hittites iron.
 
I really need to try 3UPT, argh... new game!

The settings run from 1UPT to 15UPT. Don't use 1UPT because your movements will be heavily restricted due to lack of unit swapping.

And on smaller maps, a larger number needs to be used. Especially for the early naval game as movement on coasts will make you envy the fact the Greeks launched a thousand of these ships to fight Troy. :lol:

Also, it is possible to stack units in a city after they're built but if you move them out, you can't move them back in if they exceed the UPT limit (unless they're non-combat land units, ships, and planes of course).

But that's not a good idea because if you don't have anybody in the field ready to keep the enemy from crossing your borders, you can possibly lose badly for the first part of the war as there will be several stacks swarming across your borders ready to claim tiles and pillage the countryside which can be pretty bad.

And don't get me started on trying this with Raging Barbarians. They will wipe your civilization from the face of the map and cover your cartpaths with dirt just to spite you.

It isn't recommended if micromanaging a war is your thing (and by that, I mean if you prefer giant stacks of doom).


A consequence of all of this is that Surround and Destroy is used far more often, city sieges can take a while as do wars, and tactical nukes can be used to blast holes in the enemy lines (this is subjective but it makes sense to me).

As a matter of fact, tactical nukes and atomic bombs will probably get a boost in their use simply because you can't wipe out an advancing enemy army with just two or three ICBMs anymore because the units are spread out and it wouldn't be cost beneficial to use anything heavier than tac-nukes.

Then again, nuclear warfare should become even more hectic as there are even more targets across the map for the enemy to shoot at.
 
After playing a while with this on (set to 5) and thoroughly enjoying it so far, Ive only got one thought;
That different fortifications could have different unit limits.

Right now, the only difference between a fort, a bunker, and a command center, is the defensive bonus ( 25%, 50%, and 100%) so once you learn how to build a command center, why would anyone build a bunker, let alone a fort?

So what I propose is allowing a command centre to hold as many as the unit-limit-per-tile is set to, but allowing a fort to hold double that and a bunker to hold half the limit.

My reasoning behind this is that forts and army bases have historically been more focused on logistics than territory defense, while bunkers are excellent as territory defense but rather small and limited due to all the thick concrete they are surrounded in.

It would give players a reason to build forts, since they would be useful for planning a offensive, and it make it less daunting for attackers to attack a bunker and more effective if players build a defensive "Maginot" line instead of stacking a bunch of machine gunners on one plot.

Coders; if this idea with different plots limits is even feasible, is it simple enough to do myself?
 
forts should actually become obsolete when you can build bunker. why should anyone station their tanks in a medieval fort? bunkers are just the tech-2 forts. they only do not upgrade automatically and require a worker to do so.
 
Exactly! Except in real life they are different structures with different roles, and both are very important. We just have to figure out more uses for them...
 
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