unit progression

[Ahriman]

The main reason for multiple unitcombats is for promotions. The promotions are made available by unitcombat and they generally give advantages against unitcombats. If we merge all three categories into one, then we can't give just thopters, for example, a bonus against guardsmen. So I recommend keeping three unitcombats, unless you agree that all three will have identical strengths/weaknesses against other unitcombats.

I agree that hornets and thopters should have different access to promotions. Not because of strengths/weakenesses, but because aircraft should be getting things like improved interception and evasion and collateral damage, while thopters should not.

I'd consider merging thopters and carryalls though, but the only real reason for this is to make things slightly cleaner.

The downside of separate categories is that the rocket trooper type units then need a larger entry; they need to get a bonus against 3 types of units (vehicles, hornets, thopters) rather than two (vehicles, aircraft). But this is minor.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,
so ,
do i go with the tier specified above by ahriram?

 

[Ahriman]

Issues we should get feedback on before going ahead:
a) Separate fighters and bombers or fighter/bombers? I changed the design to separate them. We could add more hornets if needed, but 5 total is probably enough.
b) National limits on URUs. Needed, or not?
Are we ok with Sardaukar resource only providing 1 unit, the Sardaukar themselves?
As opposed to Thinking machines which gives 4 units?
c) Happy with unit rolls? Melee are city attack. Thopter are mobile and anti-melee, and carryalls. Suspensors are carryall escorts. Guardsmen are city defense, anti-melee or anti-tank/anti-air. Scorpions are field superiority fighters but weaker in hills and cities.
How do we feel about about lasgun design; bonus vs melee (since they can't use personal shields). Should they also ignore city wall shields?
d) Name changes. Are these worth the flavor?

 

[Deliverator]

It would be nice to have two grades of Sardaukar eventually I think.

With renaming we can change the cosmetic names and then wait for things to settle a bit before doing the XML tags.

I don't have strong feelings on the other points right now.

 

[Ahriman]

So, how about a weaker version of Sardaukar at Personal shields tech (Strength 14 Ignores city walls. +25% city attack.), and then this current version at Kindjal blades?

Sardaukar and Imperial Sardaukar? Though imperial is tautological. Salusan Sardaukar? Also somewhat tautological.
Imperial levy at personal shields, and then Sardaukar at Kindjal blades?

 

[Deliverator]

You could have Sardaukar Legionary and Sardaukar Elite or use Noukkers for the stronger one.

NOUKKERS: officers of the Imperial bodyguard who are related to the Emperor by blood. Traditional rank for sons of royal concubines.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,
as i said, i wanna get started with working on the unit tree,
so im a little confused with all the above posts, anyone can point me a bit?

 

[Ahriman]

Keldath, do you have any points on the issues raised in post 103?

I am editing the other things into the post 93.

 

[davidlallen]

so im a little confused with all the above posts, anyone can point me a bit?

This is exactly why I have tried to insist that all the feedbacks should have a unique ID and should be kept in a spreadsheet. Please download the spreadsheet from this post and you will see all the unit feedback helpfully grouped together.

As you are starting to see, whenever there is a lot of feedback, this is a helpful way to organize it.

 

[Deliverator]

I think, to be fair, it is useful to present an overview of all units in the way Ahriman has. It is hard to bundle this all up a single issue.

Keldath, I would just take post 93 as a specification for how the units should be.

Upgrade paths are described here.

Changes coming out of this issues discussed after post 93 can be made later.

I have a good understanding of the refinements Ahriman has presented I think, so I can do the XML if you'd like.

 

[davidlallen]

Keldath has complained about both rewrites I have done, that the units are not well distributed in the tech tree. So the tech for each unit should be added to the design. Also, I highly recommend to avoid adding UU right now so that we can focus on the core units, without worrying about rebalancing the UU along with the main units. Deleting the two Imperial UU for now would be fine. The Reverend Mother and Atreides Heir are not really part of the main unit progression; you can delete them for now, but may as well leave them in.

My project for this weekend is to look into some of the SDK all terrain unit problems such as multiple unloads and using worker actions while inside a transport. (Yes, these are SDK changes. Yes, the first step is to learn how to build the SDK. Yes, that is what I am planning.)

 

[keldath]

hey guys, thanks for the info,

david,
i didnt complained... i just thought there should be some space between them.

also - uus, dont worry, as we agreed, first we need to finalize all core components for the mod, we still have much work - promotions, finished the tech tree (costs n flavors) and more.

im glad your going into the sdk, i bet that once you start youll be able to make great stuff there with you skills.

note that ive uploaded a new sdk on the incremental thread - ive added the car accelerator mod - it speeds up bts in 15%.

 

[koma13]

(Yes, these are SDK changes. Yes, the first step is to learn how to build the SDK. Yes, that is what I am planning.)

You changed your mind?

 

[Ahriman]

I agree that the military pacing feels "off" at the moment, but this is happening for two reasons.

a) The beaker costs in the current version are not the intended costs from the design document. They are often wildly different (eg vendettas tech, fanaticism tech). This messes EVERYTHING up.
b) The gap between tier 1/1.5 units (infantry, bladesman, rocket trooper/elite bladesman, master guardsmen, grenade trooper, mortar ) vs the tier2 units (heavy trooper, shock trooper, falcon thopter etc.) is potentially too large.
Part of the intention though was for the player to get only some of these techs (a religion and a form of government) and beeline one of the tier2 techs before getting the the rest, and for it not to be too easy for a tech-leader to easily bulldoze other factions in that period.
Maybe this didn't work, but it will be hard to tell until the tech costs are corrected and then adjusted.

I've added in techs for the new units; the other units weren't intended to change techs.

I have no problem with cutting UUs atm, and holding off, I agree its important to get the core right first.
For example, the fact that there was no high-level melee core unit ("elite shock trooper" in my design) was clouded by the existence of Sardaukar and Fedaykin and the like.

I think the main issues to get feedback on are in post 193, and point b) in this post.

 

[davidlallen]

You changed your mind?

I am probably the only 2000+ post person who posts in the sdk/python forums who has never done this. It is time.

 

[keldath]

hehe goodluck buddy.

ive started working on the units, according to post 93.

david have done all the work on the positioning, so im left with less work, thanks david.
ill just arrange the strengths, costs and add the rover units.

 

[Deliverator]

By rover units do you mean in addition to the list in post 93? If so, is there really room for another category of unit?

 

[davidlallen]

For the most part the units in post 93 already exist in the game. However, both the tech tree redesign and the unit redesign request a couple of "weaker scorpion" units, that is, scorpion-like units which come lower in the tech tree. I think of these as scorpions, keldath thinks of them as rollers. I am assuming these will be part of the scorpion unitcombat. There is a separate topic of whether the scorpion unitcombat should be renamed and whether the units should be more interestingly named than "light, medium and heavy". But these are the units to which keldath is referring.

 

[keldath]

hey,
im refering to the quads, as a light light scorpion unit.

ive renamed scorpion class to vehicle, as ahriman suggested, i think it better this way.

so far the speard ahriman gave done is pretty good to my taste, though,

in early mid unit tree there are low count of units, and in late there are a lot, but he compensated this by making the values of units to consider this.

im really happy with ahrimans work, is suits the tree well.

 

[keldath]

hey guys,
youve all gone quite over the weekend..

here's an update:

im near completion of the unit tree according to post 93 of ahriman,
i now need to add the new quad, trike,devastator, sonic tank.

ill finish this during the coming week along with the tech flavors.