Unit Request: Aztek/Mesoamerican Swordsman

[RedAlert]

Yeah, that's why I suggested the knight ride a jaguar instead (which in turn may be just as unlikely as him riding a horse, but I have a feeling most people would prefer the horse)

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Ummm....Jaguars aren't big enough to ride...

Horses are always an option. For example, if the Vikings brought Horses to the New World, and the horses got loose, they would gradually spread across the continent.

A Knight isn't really on my list though, I'm looking for possible future units for the Mesoamericans. Although the Knight(Would diffinitely have another name, I hate using Knight for anything other than the European Unit, as Knights are strictly European...its like giving the Ancient Egyptians Samurai)

 

[ShiroKobbure]

knight and samurai are the same it is just the warrior class of the middle ages usually on a horse, I dont know what knight means but samurai means man who serves

 

[blunt3d]

Think the knight should be a foot unit, maybe a heavy infantry type soldier. Equipped with javelins on his back for throwing at incoming enemies, and a wooden shield in one hand and a weapon in the other. I dont think heavy armor would be a good choice because of the heat/junglesurroundings/manuverability/and weight would be something i think they would avoid.

 

[RedAlert]

Ummm....Jaguars aren't big enough to ride...

Horses are always an option. For example, if the Vikings brought Horses to the New World, and the horses got loose, they would gradually spread across the continent.

A Knight isn't really on my list though, I'm looking for possible future units for the Mesoamericans. Although the Knight(Would diffinitely have another name, I hate using Knight for anything other than the European Unit, as Knights are strictly European...its like giving the Ancient Egyptians Samurai)

Oh, well, there goes my idea!

Wait..... Jaguar chariot!

 

[ShiroKobbure]

can you ride a lama? or is it too small?

 

[Xen]

theoretically, Ilamas coudl be bred to be large enough to ride- this is what happend, historically, with the horse- they were to small at first to ride (which is why chariots came before horsemen) once they were bred to a size where they were strong enough to hold a man, you have, obviouslly horsemen- I see little reason the same woudl not happen in mesoamercia, given enough tiem for them to develop indipendentlly, and if Ilamms themseklves spread outside of the andes

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Well, Llamas are related to Camels I believe. If Horses can be bred to be big enough to ride, than so can Llamas. But Llamas don't live(or at least they didn't in the 1500's) in Mesoamerica do they?

 

[ShiroKobbure]

well the aztecs never reached the iron age either....
and theres no horses in the americas
I wonder why no american civilization ever discorved the wheel

 

[Master Kodama]

Well, theres also the Eagle, in the Aztec military, the warriors were divided in ranks according to animal status. The Eagle Warrior was one of the highest ranks, second only to the Jaguar Warrior. Also, since this is also a Mesoamerican flavor, rather than just Aztec, something based off of the Plumed Serphent, Quezatylcoatl, would be cool as well.

Actually, I believe may have been above Eagle Warriors were above Jaguar Warriors in the hierarchy, technically, with Jaguar Warriors being more recon/scout troops (still elite fighters, but more light infantry, fast moving), and "Shorn Ones" being the most formiddable and fearsome, the hardest status to achieve.

As for the Knight I think Kal-el's concept sketch is excellent. And he should definitely be on horseback because horses are simply the most widely-used and most effective mounts (i.e. easiest to train, breed, maintain, etc.), historically speaking across the globe.

knight and samurai are the same it is just the warrior class of the middle ages usually on a horse, I dont know what knight means but samurai means man who serves

Right you are Shiro. This is why, though Sword of Geddon and many others may disagree, saying "Jaguar Knight" would be perfectly exceptable, since it's a translation anyway. In fact, a good friend of mine, who knows more about Mesoamerica and specifically the Aztecs than anyone could possibly want to, insists on using the term knight, as in "Jaguar Knight" and "Eagle Knight," to describe the different warrior classes of Pre-Columbian Mexico because it is more accurate, more specific, in his mind, than the catch-all "warrior." "Knight" signifies that they are members of an elite fighting order/caste. Note that above I have stuck with the more Civ3-comliant "Eagle Warrior" and "Jaguar Warrior" because I am a lousy conformist.

theoretically, Ilamas coudl be bred to be large enough to ride- this is what happend, historically, with the horse- they were to small at first to ride (which is why chariots came before horsemen) once they were bred to a size where they were strong enough to hold a man, you have, obviouslly horsemen- I see little reason the same woudl not happen in mesoamercia, given enough tiem for them to develop indipendentlly, and if Ilamms themseklves spread outside of the andes

Llamas don't have the proper temperment to be used as war mounts, I think. It would be very difficult and time-consuming to breed war-worthy mounts out of llamas, before or after importation from the Andes -- much easier and more believeable IMO to just have the Mesoamericans import, steal, or otherwise obtain horses in an alternate history setting. The genus Equus did evolve in the New World after all, it's not like they or total strangers to the Americas.

I wonder why no american civilization ever discorved the wheel

That's not true, I'm fairly sure the Maya (there may have been others) had the wheel. However, it wasn't very useful for much of anything, as they didn't have any draft animals to pull carts of anything, and people don't make very good draft animals themselves. Andean peoples may have had llamas, but they're pack animals, not draft animals, not much use for pulling carts or (as I mentioned earlier) for riding either. Plus, I'm not sure any Andeans had the wheel.

 

[RedAlert]

Even if llamas did reach mesoamerica, I think llama riders would be best left for the Incans.
I guess the Aztecs should get horses - I was thinking that alternate history wise, if the Aztecs survived the arrival of the spanish, their iron age could have begun then, and they could have acquired horses, weapons, and technologies from the europeans, but the units would still look aztec.

 

[Kal-el]

And of course, as people always sseem to disregard in these discussions, in a game of Civ it is very possible that the Maya/Aztec/Zulu/Iroquois/Inca, etc. start with horses next to their capital. In which case what happened historically here on earth is irrelevant, isn't it. This is a game of alternate history afterall.

Just in case people here haven't seen the Aztec Knight that was refered to earlier, here it is.

And here are a couple other sketches that still haven't been made into units.

The Aztec Archer:

the upgrade to replace the longbowman
Quetzal Archer

 

[utahjazz7]

It would be nice to see the Aztec Knight fully covered. I really like the way that the two archers look as well.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

well I always play a modded version of tets map. so things are historically acturate

 

[blunt3d]

Aye man those sketches look bad ass. Im from central america and i know alot about our history 2. The wheel was known to mesoamerica(they made toys with wheels) but like kodoma said they were'nt really useful they used other accurate methods to build roads,measurment and astronomy.As for the Quetzal Archer i think the atl-atl(javeline) was highly preferd in effeciency as the the bow and arrow required alot more skill and training. I think the knight idea is good though you never know horses might of been brought from asia so its not a bad idea.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

here is my idea for the swordsman
blue=civ color

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Interesting form, I like how you choose a black eagle instead of a white eagle for the headress.

I know..I know, but to me Knight is a cultural object of Europe, like the Scimitar is the the middle-east, or the Longboat is to the Vikings, not just a catch-all term, like Warrior is.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

i got the the head dress and clothing from a aztec warrior model.
how about going making a more euro aztec knight. as if the aztecs beat the small spainish invasian and studied the armour and bread the horses

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

They could do that, I mean the Haida(An advanced Native American tribe Up in the Seattle, Alaska area), saw a European sailing ship off the coast once, and managed to create their own sailing vessels based on them, I'm sure the Azteks could do the same..

 

[ShiroKobbure]

haha
um this is just something i drew
a fire-spearman?
it might hurt on the first attack... um he may need a secound to relight his spear