Unit strength overhaul

[DRJ]

Interesting posts about medieval combat - I got a lot of thinking to do when making changes to those units. I'll tweak Mailed Knight and beef up swordsman units a bit. By the way, does anyone think pikeman/heavy pikeman could use different techs that enable those units?

I think pikes could come earlier than engineering. I mean what is the relation between "engineering" and "making a good pike instead of a simple spear" anyway?

I would enable pikes by "smithing". First, because this technology is not so important now, secound because the much needed counter of horse-armies could then come before researching such expansive techs like machinery and engineering (which requires to have researched machinery).
So you could, (if you really need) to get pikes a bit earlier, by beelining to it.

Heavy pikes could then require "education", that would be one tech before "political philosophy" which enables them right now.
By experience I would say the AI who gets mailed knights first, wins most wars as well (if they can produce enough of them fast enough - and we all know the AI can... On the other hand most of the AIs research all the medieval stuff first before education. They usually stop after philosophy and then go breed horses.
I almost never research those, so getting to heavy pikes just in time is essential for my strategy.

Regarding the computer stacks, I really see the mailed knights issue... By now I rarely build any cavalry, instead I duck in fortresses and build defensive lines, to block the overwhelming AI stacks... I think we need a new promotion: as well as a medic2 can heal units in adjacent tiles, I think units coverd side by side (or even by one side) in trenches or forts could stimulate the neighbours with a flank cover bonus (f.e.+%20 tile defense).

This promotion could render some flanking issues by huge horse armys useless, cause they have a fortification system in front of them and cant easily get around it. On the other hand the human player is able to stand against AI by using strategy and lesser units. It would be historic as well, just look at the spartans denfense of the Thermophyls.

I know the machine gun can get a trench promotion but I think thats not really what I intended to describe. ;-)



Regarding the screenie: horse-unit stacks of 50+ units are not unusual... If this stack would hit my empire now, I would be dead meat. Good thing I have such fulfilling trade arangements with mansa...

One last thing: mailed knights and knights, as well as heavy cavalry should also get a hills attack modifier (-20%) - they are heavy and cant get up a hill with much speed, their horses get fatigued and that means they arent that good to handle during the following fight etc...

 

[Strat_84]

I can't remember how the tech tree is in 2.7 and I don't have Civilization installed on that computer so I can't be very accurate, but the "medium" pikemen are just fine if they come a little later than horse archers.
That way it would give this unit a little glory period, before it is definitively countered by pikemen.

 

[Skeeve_Sunshine]

Units overhaul seems ok in general. I do have problems with siege units.

Siege unit is primarily a city attack unit ( or for attacking stack of enemy units).

Siege units of old ( catapult, battering ram, etc) are slow and fragile. Thus they need
additional units to defend them.

This is not the case atm as catapult with str 6 is superior to attacking axeman ( str 5).

I would suggest to make all siege units ( except FLAK88 and Machine gun) get -80% while defending. That would give them some chance against wounded units you would have to have some defender units with your siege units.

I have playtested it a bit and it seems balanced change.

What do you think ?

I'm new to modding so i think the easiest way to do this is :

Spoiler :

<TerrainDefenses>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_HILL</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_SNOW</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
<TerrainDefense>
<TerrainType>TERRAIN_MARSH</TerrainType>
<iTerrainDefense>-80</iTerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefense>
</TerrainDefenses>

<FeatureDefenses>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_JUNGLE</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_OASIS</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_FLOOD_PLAINS</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_SWAMP</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
<FeatureDefense>
<FeatureType>FEATURE_FALLOUT</FeatureType>
<iFeatureDefense>-80</iFeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefense>
</FeatureDefenses>

 

[NBAfan]

Maybe we could give pikes 100% vs mailed knights along with the 100% vs mounted units.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, if Mailed Knights don't count as mounted units, that would make perfect sense.

 

[digitCruncher]

An easy way to solve the powerful seige defence units is to give all (non-machine gun) siege units a free 'weak defender' promotion.

'Weak Defender'
Requires: Never (Same as stuff like Woot Steel / Steel Decks / Poison Arrows etc. etc.)
Effect: -80% defence on plains
-80% defence on grassland
-80% defence on tundra
-80% defence on ice
-80% defence on snow
-80% defence on desert
-80% defence on swamp
-80% defence on coast
-80% defence on ocean
Does not recieve Defencive Bonuses

This way, it doesn't clutter up the civiliopedia (which is already victim of a significant amount of clutter )

Other notes about balance:

Have you considered:

- A missile Launcher weapon that has 1 movement, and carries 1 tactical nuke / guided missile, low strength, weak defender promotion? This can be upgraded in the near future era to a 2 movement unit that carries 2 missiles later on
- An advanced, albiet expensive super-spy unit in the modern / near future era? Spies are just too cheap in the industrial era and beyond... it would be great to have spies which start with 2 free promotions, for example, or something similar... Maybe have regular spies with 'Hi-Tech unit invisibility', meaning in the late game, old spies would be rooted out very easily... and you will be forced to upgrade / build these new super spies?? You probably should have spies given the 'hidden nationality' promotion, if this is a problem
- A powerful anti-air unit (Mobile Railgun?) Upgrade of the Mobile SAM, with a 100% air interception chance? That way, it takes out all the old aircraft, but stealth planes can still get through.
- An upgrade of the nuclear bomber (Stealth nuclear bomber, maybe), with a moderate evasion chance (not as high as the evasion chances of bombers of it's era, but similar). This way you can nuke, even with SDI and missile defence systems...
- Missile Defence Systems (If they aren't already implemented... I am away from my Civ IV ATM). Gives an additional +25% chance to intercept nuclear missiles (stacks with the +50% from SDI)
- A Fanatic unit available for all units, regardless of religion? I would love to make a religious crusade, but I can't, as Christianity almost never reaches my lands. Making them weaker than the Christian Crusaders would be an idea to retain the power of Christianity... obviously it would require the Intolerant Civic
- A sniper, able to attack the weakest unit in the stack? It would be a 20 strength unit, with +200% vs. melee, archery, +50% vs. Mounted, Gunpowder, and +25% vs High-tech infantry, and clones. It would appear just after Infantry and Modern Grenadiers appear, so it would be a comparitively weak unit. Alternatively, you could buff it to ~30 strength, and make it appear with marines...
- A beast master unit: Very futuristic unit which creates a VERY strong, barbarian unit within 6 tiles of it (at the sacrifice of the unit, of course). The barbarian unit would probably be a modification of some animal unit, but it would be a biological warfare unit, with about 3 times the strength of a comparitive unit of the same era, as well as the barbarian AI that razes tons of cities. However, the beast master unit would be rather weak. Pros: A way to get a large army fast. Cons: You don't control the spawned barbarian units...

Finally, nuclear weapons should be MUCH more expensive than just +5 GPT. The ratio between them and modern armors, should be double that of the ratio in Civ IV BtS, due to the MUCH larger stacks in RoM. But I love the ability to build the manhatten project MUCH earlier than the UN It will give me enough time to build nukes... for defence, of course (I have beelined nukes... probably a bad idea, as I missed Artillery AND Automatic Weapons, meaning my only decent defenders are my Machine Guns... but at least my air-force is second to none Anyway, as a result, I need nukes to defend against my two enemies...)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

- A missile Launcher weapon that has 1 movement, and carries 1 tactical nuke / guided missile, low strength, weak defender promotion? This can be upgraded in the near future era to a 2 movement unit that carries 2 missiles later on
- An advanced, albiet expensive super-spy unit in the modern / near future era? Spies are just too cheap in the industrial era and beyond... it would be great to have spies which start with 2 free promotions, for example, or something similar... Maybe have regular spies with 'Hi-Tech unit invisibility', meaning in the late game, old spies would be rooted out very easily... and you will be forced to upgrade / build these new super spies?? You probably should have spies given the 'hidden nationality' promotion, if this is a problem

Have you seen Joyoo's missile launcher and Vincentz 007 and other spies mods in the RoMmods forum?

 

[romelus]

i second the weak defender promotion. either that, or reduce pre-gunpowder sieges' strength and give them city attack bonuses

 

[Munger]

I THIRD the weak defender promotion. Great idea!

But... what would the icon look like? Perhaps just a silhouette of a catapult to represent that the unit is of the siege class?

 

[NBAfan]

I fourth the weak defender promotion idea.

 

[digitCruncher]

Maybe something like half of a shield, where the shield is obviously broken in half.

The Weak Defender idea could be useful for other units... units which you want to be used for attacking, but also don't want to be over powered...

But most siege units (with the obvious exception of Flamethrowers, and Machine Guns) should have it... so a catapult is another good symbol...

 

[zappara]

Time to wake up this thread again - in case I'll need to tweak some unit values for v2.9.

So, when playing RoM 2.8, have you encountered units that have seemed to be too powerful or useless compared to other available units at the same timeline?

How are all Transhuman era units and their promotin lines working?

 

[Afforess]

Time to wake up this thread again - in case I'll need to tweak some unit values for v2.9.

So, when playing RoM 2.8, have you encountered units that have seemed to be too powerful or useless compared to other available units at the same timeline?

How are all Transhuman era units and their promotin lines working?

Chariots are useless, and elephants could use a minor boost, considering that you need Ivory, a semi-rare resource, and that they are terrible at defense.

 

[os79]

Either tweak Warlords or remove them till they are fixed.

They are too exploitative . I removed them mostly because of bastard general births but also because I can easily boost my units fairly too often to unbalance.

 

[Adde]

Time to wake up this thread again - in case I'll need to tweak some unit values for v2.9.

So, when playing RoM 2.8, have you encountered units that have seemed to be too powerful or useless compared to other available units at the same timeline?

How are all Transhuman era units and their promotin lines working?

I still haven't made it to the Transhuman era, sadly. I always seem to end up too far ahead of the AI before then, but I keep increasing the difficulty so I'm sure I'll get there soon. I do however have lots of experience playing through the first eras over and over, so I can make a few observations on those.

Pikemen seem to be a bit too weak compared to other units available at the same time. Even though I always try and keep a few pikemen in my stacks, when I get attacked by mounted units it's usually my macemen or swordsmen that defend anyway. I'm not sure if 9 strength +50% (vs mounted) gets rounded to 13 or 14, but either way the heavy swordsman seems like a much better choice to build given that you get the same strength (or just 1 less) against mounted units, which is supposed to be the pikemens specialty, and you get a much better unit against all other unit types, with the added city attack bonus, and they are both enabled by the same tech. If I'm doing the maths correctly then it comes out as:

Vs Mounted: Heavy Pikeman 13(14) Heavy Swordsman 13 Draw
Vs all other units Heavy Pikeman 9 Heavy Swordsman 13 Win H.S.
Vs City: Heavy Pikeman 9 Heavy Swordsman 17 Win H.S.

I think I'd like to see pikemen with +100% against mounted instead, or given a slight strength boost, so that they clearly win in the vs mounted category.


Longbowmen are the second units that don't seem to be very useful, although not quite as bad as pikemen. I don't know if it's because I research in a strange order, but I always end up with crossbowmen long before longbowmen, and longbowmen don't seem to be enough of an improvement to make it worth building them instead, or waiting to build them instead of crossbowmen. I get the feeling that longbowmen are meant to be more for city defence (and crossbowmen are to counter macemen) but longbowmen end up with 10 strength (8 +25%) against the 9 strength of a crossbowman, making them only a very small improvement, but they also lose the +50% against melee units which to me is much more useful than 1 additional strength, since in my games most attackers are melee units at that stage of the game.
If it were up to me I think I'd give longbowmen a +50% city defence bonus and make them the clear unit of choice to defend at that era, but that's only my personal opinion and I'm sure others will disagree.


Another unit that seems rather useless currently is the Arquebusier. In the civilopedia it says ”The Arquebusier is the first gunpowder unit and is good for city defense”, except that the unit has 12 strength and no bonuses against anything, so unless I'm missing something then a Heavy Swordsman with 13 strength makes a better defender. I know it gets some sort of bonus for being a gunpowder unit, but I don't think that helps when defending unless I'm mistaken. Anyway, there might be a good use for this unit, and if there is I'd love someone to tell me what it is, but in my own games I almost never build any of these units.


My last observation is almost certainly due to my own ”weird” way of playing, but I find that I don't really have any use for any mounted units before the Cuirassier, and in my latest games it's been direct to Cavalry. Up until I need Military Science to research Semi-Automatic weapons, which in turn means I have to research Cavalry Tactics and Military Tradition, then I just ignore any and all research options for horses/elephants/mounted units, and then by the time I get to that point I usually acquire these by building the encyclopedia, or if I can't do that then by that time they only take 1-2 turns to research anyway. I guess my point is that IMO Cavalry seem useful compared to their infantry counterpart riflemen (as do cuirassiers to musketmen), whereas any mounted units prior to these seem to have too significant penalties when attacking any unit that isn't on a desert tile (sorry for the exaggeration but that's how it sometimes feels when playing), and since the AI always tries to end turns in locations with defence bonuses then the mounted units just don't seem worth it. Sure they move quicker, but that doesn't help me when they die at their destination.
I would at this point like to make clear that I almost always play on maps with heavy forest/jungle and I know that it's therefore my own fault that these units aren't very useful, in the same way as naval units wouldn't be very useful on maps without water. I am therefore not trying to be critical of mounted units (even if it perhaps sounds that way), I am more surprised at the fact that it seems possible (and even sometimes beneficial) to completely neglect them and the accompanying research without any noticeable penalties.

 

[Terrance888]

Pikesmen should have a bonus of 'Unflankable' either attached to them or to the Cavalry. They should also get either 1 first strike (long pikes). They are mostly defensive right?
Longbowmen should have an ability to cause collateral dmg when defending!

Heavy cavalry should have a separate section, and receive -20 when attacking a hill, and -30 when attacking a forest. (tired, lose formation) On a forested hill that is a grand -50%

IMO Combat promotions should also give first strikes in combat 3-6. And +15% instead of 10% because of the new 30-45% of new units over old.

Finally, new Archer unit should be Compostie Bowmen, + 25% in hills, cities, +10% v.s. melee. 5 Str.

 

[NBAfan]

Either tweak Warlords or remove them till they are fixed.

They are too exploitative . I removed them mostly because of bastard general births but also because I can easily boost my units fairly too often to unbalance.

You do know that it is moduler right?

 

[civ_king]

Pikesmen should have a bonus of 'Unflankable' either attached to them or to the Cavalry. They should also get either 1 first strike (long pikes). They are mostly defensive right?
Longbowmen should have an ability to cause collateral dmg when defending!

Heavy cavalry should have a separate section, and receive -20 when attacking a hill, and -30 when attacking a forest. (tired, lose formation) On a forested hill that is a grand -50%

IMO Combat promotions should also give first strikes in combat 3-6. And +15% instead of 10% because of the new 30-45% of new units over old.

Finally, new Archer unit should be Compostie Bowmen, + 25% in hills, cities, +10% v.s. melee. 5 Str.

what the heck? then what does Drill do?

 

[os79]

You do know that it is moduler right?

Funny thing: I did say I removed it .

Plus to us modmodders, everything is modular in the end after some effort. (Exaggeration, yes, but you know what I mean ).

 

[generalstaff]

Chariots are useless, and elephants could use a minor boost, considering that you need Ivory, a semi-rare resource, and that they are terrible at defense.

Completely agree.

Also, the Holy Roman Landsknecht needs to have +1 Strength to match the regular Pikeman. The whole point of that UU is that it dominates everything in that period but archers, gunpowder, and defending against Trebuchets.