Universal Basic Income

I don't really want other people telling me what to do, but I don't mind other people not accepting what I want to do and having to learn to conform. This is at the heart of my wariness of the above.

The market can be a vehicle for people telling you what to do as easily as the state can.
Your two options here don't align to state and market, they align to authoritarianism and democracy.
I am really perplexed by your apparent belief that the market is somehow aligned or even synonymous with human freedom. Historically, to most people, the expanse of the market meant the destruction of freedom, the increasing regimentation of life, even in many cases actual enslavement, the pillaging and destruction of entire civilizations.
The market is a tool that can be used for good or ill. But attempting to make it the sole basis of social organization inevitably causes a backlash, as society tends to resist attempts to destroy it. And in modern times, that backlash has frequently taken the form of fascism, another thing I'd prefer to avoid.
 
What this amounts to is an assertion that a (at least, in theory) democratic state should play a bigger role in organizing society, and the market should play a smaller one.

That depends on what you mean by "organizing." I'd argue that UBI increases freedom and autonomy from controlling individual decisionmaking. For the poor it removes restrictions on what they can spend their money on. For the middle class it means fewer restrictions on how to spend one's time, what employment to pursue, etc. It does redistribute wealth from the top, under the system as I conceive it, but that hardly affects the way in which the upper classes will be able to spend their time and money.

Your last point is the only valid argument for UBI. To reduce inequality and poverty, you could increase tax on the rich while directing aid to the poor, instead of writing everyone a check. The impact of focused social policies on inequality and poverty is of course much greater than that of UBI. Of course UBI will reduce inequality and poverty compared to a system with zero welfare, but that's not the present system.

As for your last point, I think there are other far less costly and less regressive ways to encourage and subsidize skills recycling than writing everyone a big check.

Actually, that isn't true at all. Existing welfare programs restrict the way recipients can spend their benefits. In the U.S. at least, there are also other absurd requirements tied to employment and even to being able to pass a drug test.

You and others who have argued this have yet to provide any answer to this question - if poor person A receives $10,000 in benefits, how does it make them worse off if the government also decides to give middle class person B $10,000 in benefits? UBI would not cut benefits to the poor, if it is designed properly. You say that "targeted" benefits are better, but this is simply a belief of yours, not a fact. Many economists believe it is better both for the poor and for the economy as a whole to simply cut poor people a check and not fiddle about trying to determine if they're working, or limiting how they can spend the money. It would save hundreds of millions of dollars (if not billions) in administrative costs.

On the second point (which again, is not the only argument for UBI), it is the opposite of regressive to tax the rich more to provide the middle class a UBI. UBI is also far, far more efficient than requiring people to prove they are pursuing some sort of alternative skills before providing them a subsidy. The problem with this is that you run into all kinds of restrictions, and government picking favorites as to which kind of skills qualify, etc. Not to mention, there is no realistic mechanism by which to provide a cushion for entrepreneurs without opening up a system to massive fraud.

Inequality is huge these days. Directing subsistence income solely to the poor is not a sufficient solution, because the poor are not the only ones who suffer for inequality. Increasing the economic standing of the middle class is just as important.
 
The market should play no role in organizing society. All the market cares about is profits, it's never going to do a good job at organizing anything, it only looks at one or two variables.

You organize society and then throw the free market in there. You don't do it backwards.
 
metalhead said:
That depends on what you mean by "organizing." I'd argue that UBI increases freedom and autonomy from controlling individual decisionmaking.

That is perfectly consistent with how I'm using "organizing."

warpus said:
The market should play no role in organizing society. All the market cares about is profits, it's never going to do a good job at organizing anything, it only looks at one or two variables.

You organize society and then throw the free market in there. You don't do it backwards.

I think that's going too far. The market is the most efficient means at our disposal for accomplishing certain social tasks. But the market should properly be seen as a tool used by society, not something to which society itself should be subordinate.
 
The market is not a "tool", nor an abstract demigod whom we must either fight or obey, it is merely the name we give to the interactions between people.
 
The free market arises out of laws, rules, and regulations you've put in place. Not the other way around. You set up your society the way you want, and the free market will either be there or it won't. It will either be well regulated and work well, or it won't.

That was my only point.
 
When a market has no destructive externalities, such as the labor market, then leaving it as unfettered as possible is of maximum benefit to individuals and society as a whole. That in a nutshell is the most powerful argument for UBI, though it's not that far ahead of arguments regarding reducing inequality and restoring a better balance between supply-side wealth and aggregate demand.
 
The market is not a "tool", nor an abstract demigod whom we must either fight or obey, it is merely the name we give to the interactions between people.

The name market implies exactly that: A market. Think of stalls in the streets.
 
If by unfettered you mean unregulated, then I completely disagree. An unregulated free market will only be good for those who have a stake in the companies who end up doing well.

I definitely do not mean unregulated. "Unfettered" in the labor market simply means removing barriers to the ability of individuals to qualify for and then find employment that best suits them, without artificial barriers like needing income getting in the way. Obviously the regulation of the actual employer-employee relationship itself is quite desirable. Doesn't go nearly far enough in the U.S., in my estimation.
 
The name market implies exactly that: A market. Think of stalls in the streets.

It implies nothing of the kind. Only severely mentally ill people would think that the image of stalls in the streets encapsulate the entirety of human interaction.

People do a lot more stuff with each other than buy and sell things.
 
In older days, much more things happened in market places than just buying and selling.
 
They could be the general meeting place where people from the countryside could socialize with more than just their immediate neighbors. A place for getting news/gossip.
 
Yeah, I know that, elaborate meant explain the relevance of that fact to the matter at hand.
 
Will not work until Robotic labour replaces all cheap manual unskilled work.
At which time the idea of Basic welfare is pretty much will be needed though I like the idea of cashless welfare. With the government paying for you food, shelter, clothing and entertainment directly theres little chance of fraud.
 
WIC, housing vouchers, and SCHIP are all cashless, so that's pretty much what the U.S. has now.

Economists mostly believe this is a horribly inefficient system that is bad both for the U.S. economy and the recipients of government benefits.
 
WIC, housing vouchers, and SCHIP are all cashless, so that's pretty much what the U.S. has now.

Economists mostly believe this is a horribly inefficient system that is bad both for the U.S. economy and the recipients of government benefits.

Which is why I said wide spread robotic labour because technology will be available for the management of cashless welfare. As an economy will also become completely different under a robotic workforce.
Just imagine if all low skill labour cost became close to 0, It would free up mankind for technological and science advances or / and create a massive underclass of the population dependent on welfare.
 
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