Unofficially Official Git Balance Discussion Thread

[Osakasayama]

Is the Maya UHV even possible in the SVN version? I've been failing to build the Kukulkan on time on Regent, even with very lucky starts. I'm seeing several problems so far.

1) Holkans
The now-Skirmisher Holkan is powerful , but they can't be built until Contract
And of course the Barb and Native Holkans still spawn, while the Maya has only two of them at start

2) Techs
Getting to Calendar by 600AD is ridiculously easy. However, the tech for Kukulkan is pretty far.
It isn't difficult to get to Aesthetics, but the costs are too heavy.
I'm assuming that the player is expected to take the Native city for the Stone, but due to the lack of Holkans the Natives entrench the city with Archers by the time Contract is researched.
The only way out of that is by getting a lucky start with little defenders in that city and sacking it with the initial 2 Holkans.

3) Historicity
I believe it's been a thing since the time of Rhye, but what exactly is the basis for the Mayan start date at 50 AD?
The Mayans were around for a long time before then, and they knew much more than stone-age tier techs by the ADs.
Wikipedia even says they had Calendar and Writing by the BCs!

Here's some remedies I'd like to see.

A) Let the Mayans build Holkans from the start.
B) Reduce Barb pressure?
C) Move the Mayan starting date to the BCs with the current tech level, or give more starting techs at the current spawn date. In either case, the anachronistic Calendar UHV needs to be changed/replaced.

 

[Fresol]

I don't think it's possible to win a Mayan UHV now. LOTS of changes have to be made to make it possible again.

The native holkans are just as annoying as native aucacs.

 

[youtien]

AI Mongols have ridiculous amount of slaves via conquest now. That means we can buy slaves from them with tech, and hurry our trading company and other wonders from it.

Another issue:

With free population and building upon founding cities, we are more likely to raze cities then sent a settler to found them again, and that costs stability. How about add a "join city" function to settlers, enable them to grant all free pop and buildings to joined city?

 

[Leoreth]

Wait, slaves from capturing cities or defeating barbarians can be traded? That's not intended.

 

[Osakasayama]

I tried the Maya UHV again with their spawn date moved to 100 BC. The game went much smoother, with more time to deal with that damned Danni Baa.
I was able to build the Kukulkan on ~850 AD with a lucky-ish start.

However, I failed the third UHV when the Moors discovered me at ~1550 AD when I was 1 tech away from exploration

 

[Leoreth]

Sounds good, I was thinking about something similar. I suppose Calendar is still too easy though?

 

[Osakasayama]

Yep, Calendar could be researched 10~20 turns before the deadline even if one prioritizes Contract for the Holkans.
I'd predict that a start date of about 200~100 BC would be optimal for UHV 3, assuming that the Euros reach the Americas around 1450~1550 AD.
I'm pretty sure the Mayans could even spawn much earlier given how the Greek start at 1600 BC is justified in this mod.

Edit: Also, could the Mayans have some use for Native Slaves?
As of now they are completely useless once a few of them are spent on Slave-Plantations.

 

[youtien]

Trying a Russian game, it becomes very hard with limited workers. Although I managed to raise an army to defeat Mongols, my economy is horrible. Solution: get some vassals and change into cottage economy.

Barb horse archers are much more of nuisance now, indy Kiev often get razed, and I think no AI will do good in these versions, and as humans I won't do well without S/L.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Trying a Russian game, it becomes very hard with limited workers. Although I managed to raise an army to defeat Mongols, my economy is horrible. Solution: get some vassals and change into cottage economy.

Barb horse archers are much more of nuisance now, indy Kiev often get razed, and I think no AI will do good in these versions, and as humans I won't do well without S/L.

Same experience. Can't get myself to catch up in tech unless I have very friendly contacts. Maintenance costs are crippling my eastward expansion for UHV1.

 

[Ecthy]

What civics are you using? I find that any expansive strategy requires the "low-cost" civics, so be sure to be rid of Clergy soon enough. And do use Elective, however unhistorical it might seem for Russia, or hell, Spain!

 

[youtien]

Same experience. Can't get myself to catch up in tech unless I have very friendly contacts. Maintenance costs are crippling my eastward expansion for UHV1.

I think it is intended. Russia has the best production and largest core area(can hold 9 mega cities) in the long run. It is better to keep 0% research and use spy to steal tech from Mongols - let them conquer Kazan, then spam 4 spies, steal paper and your lumbermill is buffed.

The problem is worker priority. Food resource > lumbermill > cottage or cottage > lumbermill?

 

[youtien]

What civics are you using? I find that any expansive strategy requires the "low-cost" civics, so be sure to be rid of Clergy soon enough. And do use Elective, however unhistorical it might seem for Russia, or hell, Spain!

civic cost is nothing compared to your lack of commerce. the solution is cottage economy. Although we can get many lumbermills for production, but it needs balance. Just after you raised an army of lancers against Mongols, switch from conquest to tributary, and make Polish and Vikings and others your vassal using that army.

 

[Ecthy]

I tend to defeat the mongols using heavy spearmen when playing as Russia, differently from China, since they don't come with bombards in their stacks. I do see the offensive potential in a Lancer army though, sounds like a plan.

Do you ever go for Cargrad / Constantinople for production boost (monasteries/churches +2 each)? Or more precisely, how early do you?

 

[Fresol]

I tend to defeat the mongols using heavy spearmen when playing as Russia, differently from China, since they don't come with bombards in their stacks. I do see the offensive potential in a Lancer army though, sounds like a plan.

Hmm, but keshiks are light cavalry and eat spearmen for breakfast, if not brunch.

 

[Leoreth]

That only changed very recently though.

 

[Fresol]

Just tried to play as Russia for a while. Can't even defend my cities in the first 10 turns against 12 barb horse archers.

 

[Leoreth]

- Native American civs are immune to the plague until they have made contact with the old world
- reduce Native inclination to build defensive units
- Teotihuacan spawns in 100 AD
- Maya also start with Smelting and Ceremony
- new first Maya UHV goal: discover Writing and Mathematics by 600 AD

Those are the recent changes for Maya. I decided against moving their spawn earlier, it works pretty well with those extra techs and a more challenging first goal. Managed to discover Mathematics on point in 600 AD, and built the Temple of Kukulkan by 870 AD (on Regent). Needed a couple of attempts to optimise both science before 600 AD and production before 900 AD. The new slave mechanics are actually a nice addition to the Maya game imo, barbarian spawns kept me on my toes especially after I expended my military to conquer Danni Baa, while at the same time not feeling like a nuisance because the slaves made a significant contribution to the wonder. Teotihuacan doesn't influence your game directly but its attacks on Danni Baa means they cannot just stack Archers. Conquering it after taking that city seemed tempted but I was spread too thin keeping Mutal happy and fighting barbs.

Interesting alternative might be starting as Calakmul 1N of Mutal.

 

[Fresol]

I just observed some anomolies on the Great Schism. In a Maya test run, Orthodoxy was founded at 80 AD in Jerusalem, and immediately after that Catholicism was founded in Abu-Simbel at 155 AD. Abu-Simbel is on a Catholic "none" tile to make things more absurd. At the time 4 cities in the world were Orthodox, and only Abu-Simbel was Catholic.

 

[Leoreth]

What do you mean a "none" tile?

 

[Fresol]

Your precious little religion spread factors for different regions? I read from the world builder -> DoC maps -> religion values.