"Unprecedented Modding Tools"

[phungus420]

What advantage do firms gain by using private software they have to pay for? Is DirecX11 really that much easier to code for then OpenGL? I know GIMP is just as effective as Photoshop, and NSIS is in many ways better then InstallShield, yet most companies use install shield, even though they need to pay for it. Why? I mean I can understand licensing entire engines, like the Gamebryo engine, the cost benifit is there, but why do firms consistently use privately made tools when there are Open Source alternatives that are just as good, if not better?

 

[SJSerio]

What advantage do firms gain by using private software they have to pay for? Is DirecX11 really that much easier to code for then OpenGL? I know GIMP is just as effective as Photoshop, and NSIS is in many ways better then InstallShield, yet most companies use install shield, even though they need to pay for it. Why? I mean I can understand licensing entire engines, like the Gamebryo engine, the cost benifit is there, but why do firms consistently use privately made tools when there are Open Source alternatives that are just as good, if not better?

Well, I don't know too much about that subject.... but, if I were to guess, then I would say the PR reason would be security and product protection, but the basic answer comes down to corporate politics.

 

[Afforess]

What advantage do firms gain by using private software they have to pay for? Is DirecX11 really that much easier to code for then OpenGL? I know GIMP is just as effective as Photoshop, and NSIS is in many ways better then InstallShield, yet most companies use install shield, even though they need to pay for it. Why? I mean I can understand licensing entire engines, like the Gamebryo engine, the cost benifit is there, but why do firms consistently use privately made tools when there are Open Source alternatives that are just as good, if not better?

Documentation and Support. If your engine spontaneously crashes, and you have no private firm to call up to get help from; your SOL.

 

[EmperorFool]

Use another language than Python for scripting. Maybe C. Similarly, include a guide.

-1 on this for sure. While I resisted learning Python for many years due to the whitespace-is-syntax issue, you'll include far more modders with Python than with C. 99% of the time someone says, "you gotta do that in the DLL," modders here turn back. Plus Python is much more expressive than C++ or C in a short amount of code. There's no way I would have done as much as I have with BUG in C++, and even less in C.

Experienced coders have trouble with the STL, and you're going to ask amateurs to understand it? In C you won't even get that: roll your own linked list buddy!

 

[Afforess]

-1 on this for sure. While I resisted learning Python for many years due to the whitespace-is-syntax issue, you'll include far more modders with Python than with C. 99% of the time someone says, "you gotta do that in the DLL," modders here turn back. Plus Python is much more expressive than C++ or C in a short amount of code. There's no way I would have done as much as I have with BUG in C++, and even less in C.

Experienced coders have trouble with the STL, and you're going to ask amateurs to understand it? In C you won't even get that: roll your own linked list buddy!

I agree with EF all the way here. While the whitespace still bothers me to this day in python; and I always forget the stupid colon at the end of if's, I still can see why it is so attractive.

 

[LDiCesare]

Will never ever happen.
Because then everybody could re-invent the whole game.

If FfH2 is not reinventing the whole game, what is it, then?

 

[EmperorFool]

If FfH2 is not reinventing the whole game, what is it, then?

It's a turn-based strategy game set in a fantasy world versus a turn-based strategy game set in a reality-based world. Yes, it's very different, but it's also very much the same.

 

[Hail]

Experienced coders have trouble with the STL, and you're going to ask amateurs to understand it? In C you won't even get that: roll your own linked list buddy!

STL usage is simple and straightforward, unless the coder wants to do something perverted with STL or dig really deep into it

i bet you that all dynamic data structs where written in C a long time ago. reinventing the wheel just wastes time

about the unprecedented modding toolz, we will just have wait and see. i expect it to be nothing more than a catchy marketing phrase

 

[phungus420]

about the unprecedented modding toolz, we will just have wait and see. i expect it to be nothing more than a catchy marketing phrase

Well here's to hopping we get a good Scenario Editor; the civ4 WB is horrible, and editing WBS manually in a text editor is about the most tedious thing ever. The more I think about it, the more I wouldn't mind a simplified and user friendly unit editor either. I also can't imagine a viable tool for editing the art, you need a graphics artist to do that right, just like you need someone who can code to mess with the actual mechanics of the program. I do worry about tools getting in the way of in depth modding though, the tools may end up reducing the potential mod makers who are willing and able to dig into the code have, as ease of use tools still equates in my mind to locked platforms.

 

[EdCase]

What advantage do firms gain by using private software they have to pay for? Is DirecX11 really that much easier to code for then OpenGL? I know GIMP is just as effective as Photoshop, and NSIS is in many ways better then InstallShield, yet most companies use install shield, even though they need to pay for it. Why? I mean I can understand licensing entire engines, like the Gamebryo engine, the cost benifit is there, but why do firms consistently use privately made tools when there are Open Source alternatives that are just as good, if not better?

The short form answer: Built in development pipeline.

Gamebryo did (still does) offer more than an engine, it also had a smooth pipline for the intergration of assets. Why reinvent the wheel ?

 

[Lord Tirian]

You know what would please me a lot in terms of "unprecedented modding tools"? Having them (partially) available before the release, similar to the toolset for Neverwinter Nights 2 or the Dragon Age character creator.

An early release of the map editor or something akin to that would give modders a head start to get to terms with the overall game and serve as a great preview (even if it's restricted to pre-orders only, because I'm so going to pre-order it anyway!).

And considering that a lot of games give pre-order bonuses nowadays, I can't help but think that that would be perfect!

Cheers, LT.

 

[phungus420]

The short form answer: Built in development pipeline.

Gamebryo did (still does) offer more than an engine, it also had a smooth pipline for the intergration of assets. Why reinvent the wheel ?

Oh, I totally understand why a firm would pay to license gamebryo. What I don't understand is why the purchase tools like Photoshop, InstallShield, and DirectX, when GIMP, NSIS, and OpenGL are all out there, and free and are pretty equivalent in quality.

 

[Afforess]

Oh, I totally understand why a firm would pay to license gamebryo. What I don't understand is why the purchase tools like Photoshop, InstallShield, and DirectX, when GIMP, NSIS, and OpenGL are all out there, and free and are pretty equivalent in quality.

First off, GIMP is no where near the level of Photoshop. I love Opensource software, but that's just not true.

As for InstallShield, I suspect what has happened is better known as "Vendor Lockdown". Nobody chooses Installshield anymore, but their existing installers are too complex and would take too long to move over to another system. That and the strange fear management seems to have with opensource software.

Also, DirectX is also light years ahead of OpenGL. Not really OpenGL's fault, as Nvidia and ATI aren't always very helpful...

 

[civ editor11]

They need to use Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 for the SDK it would make it much more powerful and up to date

 

[Skajaquada]

Personally I've got very good hopes about this, mostly because the PC version of Civ haven't got such a young audience (or am I wrong here?) like The Sims. I remember GalCiv, a game like Civ in more than just name, had a pretty fun unit-editor, though it was basically lego. In a 2010-title like Civ 5 I think we can expect something nice.

 

[Skyre Noktis]

STL usage is simple and straightforward, unless the coder wants to do something perverted with STL or dig really deep into it

i bet you that all dynamic data structs where written in C a long time ago. reinventing the wheel just wastes time

I'm confused a bit here. Are you just nitpicking EmperorFool's post or are you seriously supporting the idea of dumping Python and forcing all modders to edit the DLL?

 

[Hail]

I'm confused a bit here. Are you just nitpicking EmperorFool's post or are you seriously supporting the idea of dumping Python and forcing all modders to edit the DLL?

i'm nitpicking EmperorFool's post and i do not support dumping Python as a scripting language, if it will not be replaced by another scripting language: maybe more specialized for civ.

as for STL i have so far not seen any usage of it in the code snippets scattered around on this forum

 

[croxis]

Why invent a new scripting language? All you will do is introduce another possible source for bugs while not gaining anything in functionality that couldn't be done with proper bindings. Keeping with python will benefit the institutional memory of the civ4 modders and make more advanced civ 5 mods out the door quicker.

 

[EmperorFool]

STL simply isn't a workable solution for amateurs. Seasoned engineers have enough trouble with it. I can use it when necessary, but I'd rather use this

units = []
for eUnit ...
    if ...
        units.append(eUnit)
for eUnit in units:
    # use eUnit

Than the STL equivalent. Manually dealing with iterators is so 1990.

As for standardized C data structures, I'm not familiar with them. I'm sure plenty of people have written good libraries, but none are standard as the STL is.

But it doesn't matter, even in the SDK code that could make use of the STL they avoided it almost entirely. They used Vector in a few places and probably used the STL's hashtable for the info type map (string => int). Otherwise it's all arrays and looping where sets and maps could be used to good effect. If paid Firaxis developers aren't going to use the advanced tools available, you can't possibly expect amateurs to do so.

I don't want to imagine trying to explain the STL to someone, especially since I don't consider myself an expert on its use. I was able to become a Python expert after a month of using it (probably less) and can easily explain how to use lists and dictionaries to modders here.

 

[deanej]

I don't get why they used arrays. Vectors are so much easier!