Aimeryan, what would you call new and innovative mechanics? You can reduce anything down to appearing unoriginal and plain if you so wish - which you've nicely demonstrated. But a lot of it is rooted in subjective interpretation.
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Esperr
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If civ.V didnt exist, we could say there was a lot of inovation, but most of BE is ripped straight from pre BNW V. Thats not a bad thing, but if we wanted to.play civ V again...we would have stuck to V.
stealth_nsk
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Well, this dispute is as old as... Civ5. What is better - dumb game mechanic which even AI could use or smart game mechanic which make AI look dumb? Recent poll here shown 2/3 visitors prefer 1UpT, 1/3 prefer SoD.
@Esperr: that doesn't answer my question 
The problem we have here is one of "innovation", and I find it very hard to talk about that topic unless I know what people think the word means. Or what the word means to them.
For example, Dawn of War was one of the first 'modern' RTS games to implement a squad-based structure, and was praised for it. But technically it wasn't an innovation, because previous RTS games had implemented a similar mechanic.
As another example, I agree with Aimeryan that repainting Happiness to Health and Gold to Energy is largely superficial on the face of it . . . but the actual differences between the Health system and the Happiness system in how the implementation carries across to actual gameplay is pretty severe.
You can't just stack up Luxury resources and laugh, for example.
The problem we have here is one of "innovation", and I find it very hard to talk about that topic unless I know what people think the word means. Or what the word means to them.
For example, Dawn of War was one of the first 'modern' RTS games to implement a squad-based structure, and was praised for it. But technically it wasn't an innovation, because previous RTS games had implemented a similar mechanic.
As another example, I agree with Aimeryan that repainting Happiness to Health and Gold to Energy is largely superficial on the face of it . . . but the actual differences between the Health system and the Happiness system in how the implementation carries across to actual gameplay is pretty severe.
You can't just stack up Luxury resources and laugh, for example.
SupremacyKing2
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Technically, the 1/3 said they prefer MUPT, not SOD. Remember that MUPT does not automatically equal SOD. You can MUPT without SOD.
stealth_nsk
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Yes, you're correct, I've used the wrong term. Also, while 1/3 is minority, it's not a small number. Someone could make a solid game sales if the company will be able to target 1/3 of Civ players.
@Gorb: Taking Health/Happiness; both can be gained from buildings (both limited by local pop), both can be gained from tiles (small tweak here - Health tiles are spammable but local, Happiness tiles are not-spammable but global), can be gained from virtues/policies. They are largely gained in very similar ways - the differences are numerical rather than mechanical.
This is mostly what I mean by innovation within Civ - new mechanics. Skin changes, name changes, numerical changes, they are just tweaks. Mechanical changes (like the Health/Happiness tiles) can be part innovation, part tweak - interesting, but not as much as a new mechanic would be.
I am also happy to see old mechanics brought back in if they mesh differently in the new metagame - so SMAC's alien mechanics would probably be quite interesting in Civ BE, probably way more interesting than aliens sitting around a nest doing very little. The aliens we have in BE are really just tweaks on Barbarians, but with some stuff taken out (like actually attacking your cities, capturing workers, scaling with your civ, etc.). I don't really see the aliens as an innovation, which is sad when they are meant to be a large part of what the game is about.
Basically, using current things in slightly different ways may be innovative in some sense (the new way is new), but it isn't an innovation. Example, I usually throw a ball with my right hand/arm; I could be "innovative" and switch to my left - but it isn't really a innovation, its more just a tweak. Kicking the ball would be part innovation/part tweak, however, having to fight off gremlins at the same time would be a more interesting addition (well, at least in my opinion) and be more of an innovation.
This is mostly what I mean by innovation within Civ - new mechanics. Skin changes, name changes, numerical changes, they are just tweaks. Mechanical changes (like the Health/Happiness tiles) can be part innovation, part tweak - interesting, but not as much as a new mechanic would be.
I am also happy to see old mechanics brought back in if they mesh differently in the new metagame - so SMAC's alien mechanics would probably be quite interesting in Civ BE, probably way more interesting than aliens sitting around a nest doing very little. The aliens we have in BE are really just tweaks on Barbarians, but with some stuff taken out (like actually attacking your cities, capturing workers, scaling with your civ, etc.). I don't really see the aliens as an innovation, which is sad when they are meant to be a large part of what the game is about.
Basically, using current things in slightly different ways may be innovative in some sense (the new way is new), but it isn't an innovation. Example, I usually throw a ball with my right hand/arm; I could be "innovative" and switch to my left - but it isn't really a innovation, its more just a tweak. Kicking the ball would be part innovation/part tweak, however, having to fight off gremlins at the same time would be a more interesting addition (well, at least in my opinion) and be more of an innovation.
Lucius_
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Legit. I'm patching now...77MB.
Minor Annoyance
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And on a day I'm working. That's Firaxis!
J/K Not that big an a-hole.
J/K Not that big an a-hole.
Minor Annoyance
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If old saves still work I'm going to load some of my winning games up and see how much my colony crumbles under the weight of unhealth.
My strategy of not spamming cities and taking care of my health is going to pay off massively.
Yus.
EDIT@Aimeryan: sorry, forgot I wasn't in the "new patch thread". Thanks for clarifying your position, and in light of that I do have responses to some of your criticisms, but they'll have to wait (work is killing me right now, and I need to fix up my Advanced Explorer mod tonight)!
Yus.
EDIT@Aimeryan: sorry, forgot I wasn't in the "new patch thread". Thanks for clarifying your position, and in light of that I do have responses to some of your criticisms, but they'll have to wait (work is killing me right now, and I need to fix up my Advanced Explorer mod tonight)!
Moderator Action: In light of the release of the Fall patch, we're closing this thread. Please continue discussions in the Fall patch thread.
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