Upcoming Patch Info

[SupremacyKing2]

I have to admit that I am very curious and a bit impatient for more news about the patch. I'd love to know more about the specific changes, in order to get some idea of what the game will be like post-patch.

 

[Pietato]

That is something so basic, it is hard to understand how it got left out. Was it done on purpose? Did the devs see it as not being a necessary feature since players do get notifications when the build is empty and players can always see what buildings and wonders a city has from the city screen? Or did it honestly just slip through the cracks of QA testing? Did none of the QA testers notice it was missing?

I also think that not having some way to automate trade routes is another obvious and basic missing feature. Every previous civ game has always given players ways to automate things if they so choose. Surely, someone should have said "by turn 150, I'm spending most of the turn manually renewing like 30+ trade routes, players might find this a bit tedious", especially when all it took was a mod adding a simple "previous route" action button?

I'm just glad that a big patch is coming which will hopefully address all these issues and give us a better game.

It seems like they got the game to an early beta playable level, then just pushed it out the door. No QA done.

 

[Pietato]

I have to admit that I am very curious and a bit impatient for more news about the patch. I'd love to know more about the specific changes, in order to get some idea of what the game will be like post-patch.

Hopefully their trade route changes are not 'reduced yields by 1'...

 

[m15a]

I wish this forum didn't turn into Trade Route Debater.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I think many players have forgotten that food in Civilization isn't literal food.

It's hard not to think of it as literal food when it is called food and the vast majority of it comes from farms.

City growth is an amalgamation of a lot of factors, birth rate, death rate, immigration, and emigration.

When it's about other factors like health then it usually comes in the form of food carryover like civ5's aqueducts and medlab, but then they make it weird by having a hospital directly increase food. It's easier to see affects on food like +10% food as being something other than more food but instead increasing growth, but if something says +4 food it really seems like more food.

Food representing immigration is easier to believe in civ 5 where there are barbarians, and city states so there is obviously unseen population around. However in BE there's not likely a lot of people outside of established cities. Although we don't see the number there are a fixed number of human people who arrive on the planet so everyone afterwards has to be born from them. They can't just wander in.

Food is an abstraction of economic opportunities and other growth factors. It's not literally food.

Growth from economics was easier to see in civ5 with Civil Society decreasing food consumption from specialists. But if it is also economic opportunities then why wouldn't factories increase food?

Excess food directly leading to population growth in an area is fantastically ludicrous.

No, not really. You said yourself that immigration is an aspect of city growth. I can easily imagine people moving to a city that has more food because either they could not get enough in other places or it was cheaper in the more productive city because of increased supply.

As a fan of Lost, Prometheus, and Battlestar Galactica I've proven myself capable of looking past the surface of something and using my own thoughts and the ideas of others to piece together meaning where none is glaringly apparent. However having am icebound city with no productivity of it's own offer huge boosts of growth and production to a far larger city is too much for me to think up a reason for. Please do it for me and be reasonably specific about what is happening in this scenario.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I have to admit that I am very curious and a bit impatient for more news about the patch. I'd love to know more about the specific changes, in order to get some idea of what the game will be like post-patch.

I'm ready to jump on the "where the hell is it" bandwagon too. I looked down on others for their impatience but I also have limits.

 

[Pietato]

I wish this forum didn't turn into Trade Route Debater.

Everything else is minor compared to the sheer brokeness of trade routes. Fix those first, then discussion can properly take place.

 

[Roxlimn]

Minor Annoyance:

Food representing immigration is easier to believe in civ 5 where there are barbarians, and city states so there is obviously unseen population around. However in BE there's not likely a lot of people outside of established cities. Although we don't see the number there are a fixed number of human people who arrive on the planet so everyone afterwards has to be born from them. They can't just wander in.

Actually, the Civilopedia isn't particularly specific about whether or not there's a whole lot of people simply not in the cities. Like I said, the pop score of a city itself is only an abstraction of its productive capacity. A city with a pop score of 3 has 3 tile inputs coming in, but that's an abstraction of its population capability. Its in-fiction population might be more or less than a city with a score of 4.

Also, people in BE aren't necessarily born from people. The early Wonder Ectogensis Pod establishes that population growth was quickly detached from birth rate fairly early on in the process.

As a fan of Lost, Prometheus, and Battlestar Galactica I've proven myself capable of looking past the surface of something and using my own thoughts and the ideas of others to piece together meaning where none is glaringly apparent. However having am icebound city with no productivity of it's own offer huge boosts of growth and production to a far larger city is too much for me to think up a reason for. Please do it for me and be reasonably specific about what is happening in this scenario.

A new city is kind of like a new state or a new country or new overseas colony. It's not necessarily just the one city, and the newly established city can have a bunch of things going on not represented in-game.

The Trade Depots and units could be abstracted as growing the export economy of such an establishment. The tile outputs are local output - development meant for the locals and used locally. Trade Depots and Convoys and Vessels are export development - developing the colony for export purposes while leaving its infrastructure and produce for local consumption largely undeveloped.

A new site of that nature can be ripe for residency - nonproductive population that nonetheless spurs growth. A new city contributing a lot to a main city could be a consuming market that creates new people that migrate back to the main cities to spur growth and productivity. As their home cities develop infrastructure and economic opportunities of their own, this exodus slows.

 

[glov0044]

I'm starting to wonder if they are also testing the Mac version as well with a plan of releasing a major patch to all platforms at the same time. In the last week, perhaps there are Mac issues that they are collecting, fixing, and testing?

 

[oakdragon]

I'm starting to wonder if they are also testing the Mac version as well with a plan of releasing a major patch to all platforms at the same time. In the last week, perhaps there are Mac issues that they are collecting, fixing, and testing?

I gather that they're completely separate. Firaxis builds the PC version (the only version, from their point of view) and then releases it and hands it off to Aspyr who ports it to other platforms.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I'm ready to jump on the "where the hell is it" bandwagon too. I looked down on others for their impatience but I also have limits.

Yeah, similarly here. At least a little heads-up would be nice. I want a good and solid patch more than a quick one and sure, there are things that can go wrong during approval and require additional work, especially with something as big as that...

...but at least keep your fans in the loop, even if it's just "the patch from last week had a few bugs we found during approval, we're fixed them and going through approval again".

Problems happen and people understand - but too much silence breeds speculation.

 

[glov0044]

I gather that they're completely separate. Firaxis builds the PC version (the only version, from their point of view) and then releases it and hands it off to Aspyr who ports it to other platforms.

Yep, I know that Aspyr is involved with the porting. I wonder if the Mac version needs to be up to date with the PC version. This is especially important with mulitplayer games that go between platforms if drastic changes are made.

 

[m15a]

Never mind

 

[GaelicWarrior]

GaelicWarrior:

I'm not entirely sure that MP necessarily makes SP better. If that's your thesis, then you're not making a strong one, and saying that a lot of people agree with you isn't necessarily a convincing argument either.

MinorAnnoyance:

I think many players have forgotten that food in Civilization isn't literal food. City growth is an amalgamation of a lot of factors, birth rate, death rate, immigration, and emigration. Excess food directly leading to population growth in an area is fantastically ludicrous. Food is an abstraction of economic opportunities and other growth factors. It's not literally food.

Of course it would. Since the balance in the game has to be deeper when you are thinking about playing a human rather than an AI. An AI cannot be smarter and wiser than a good human player since they are only representations of the developers (in this case, not very talented developers, hence winning on Apollo with 40 trade routes inside 85 turns on first play through).

 

[glov0044]

Well, there has been somethings going on that I can see. Steamdb shows activity to the Windows version 15 days ago, 8 days ago, 2 days ago, and yesterday. There was activity with the Mac version yesterday and today. Now I can't see what activity was made, so this is purely speculation (could just be files moving around within Steam). But the changes to the Windows version and then changes to the Mac version afterwards make me wonder if the approval process is testing the Windows version, then getting Asper to change and test Mac version, then attempt a multiplayer game between Windows and Mac.

 

[m15a]

Of course it would. Since the balance in the game has to be deeper when you are thinking about playing a human rather than an AI. An AI cannot be smarter and wiser than a good human player since they are only representations of the developers (in this case, not very talented developers, hence winning on Apollo with 40 trade routes inside 85 turns on first play through).

Better balanced does not necessarily mean a better game. For example, Civ V's unique civ bonuses make the game less balanced but many people prefer having them over not having them.

 

[Xenotitan]

Well, balancing a game by removing features does usually make for a worse game, yes. But if they can increase the balance without removing features then the game will definitely be better.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Minor Annoyance:



Actually, the Civilopedia isn't particularly specific about whether or not there's a whole lot of people simply not in the cities. Like I said, the pop score of a city itself is only an abstraction of its productive capacity. A city with a pop score of 3 has 3 tile inputs coming in, but that's an abstraction of its population capability. Its in-fiction population might be more or less than a city with a score of 4.

Also, people in BE aren't necessarily born from people. The early Wonder Ectogensis Pod establishes that population growth was quickly detached from birth rate fairly early on in the process.



A new city is kind of like a new state or a new country or new overseas colony. It's not necessarily just the one city, and the newly established city can have a bunch of things going on not represented in-game.

The Trade Depots and units could be abstracted as growing the export economy of such an establishment. The tile outputs are local output - development meant for the locals and used locally. Trade Depots and Convoys and Vessels are export development - developing the colony for export purposes while leaving its infrastructure and produce for local consumption largely undeveloped.

A new site of that nature can be ripe for residency - nonproductive population that nonetheless spurs growth. A new city contributing a lot to a main city could be a consuming market that creates new people that migrate back to the main cities to spur growth and productivity. As their home cities develop infrastructure and economic opportunities of their own, this exodus slows.

I think you'll loose a lot of people with the 1 = 4 and 4 ≠ 4 argument. Even if I accept every possibility of how a seemingly useless city has something to offer a great city, it still wouldn't explain how the smaller city is getting less benefit from trading with the big city while the big city is getting lots of help from the smaller.

 

[m15a]

Well, balancing a game by removing features does usually make for a worse game, yes. But if they can increase the balance without removing features then the game will definitely be better.

I think if the game was designed for multiplayer, that is, designed so it's balanced in multiplayer from the start, a lot of the unique abilities would never be considered in Civ V in the first place. I mean, something like Venice might not be added because it's not viable in MP.

 

[Bezurn]

I too am awaiting for the upcoming patch info, and it would be nice to get some patch notes in advance in the features that have been locked in. Looking back on the history of the Civilization 5 launch it took them about 3-4 months between release date and to patch date (September - December).

If we get the patch before the end of the year it will be a welcome present