Upcoming Version Changelog

[Gazebo]

General
    Fixed pantheons to continue to provide bonuses in cities after a religion is founded (removes 'lag time' between founding and spreading religion for pantheon faiths)
    Adjusted CS bullying model for 'heavy tribute' to mirror gold scaling - no longer dependent on city yields, should be easier to standardize and balance.
    Adjustments to city citizen AI
    Major Diplo AI work from Recursive
    Adjustements to religious unit AI by ilteroi
    Adjustments to air unit logic by ilteroi
    TacticalAI adjustments
    Fixed a few scaling yield issues related to gamespeed
    Fixed missionary strength scaling
    Fixed religious pressure bug(s)
    Minor adjustments to builderAI, reconAI, homelandAI
    Adjustment to dealAI valuation of strategic resources
    
Leader Changes
    Celts - Pantheons reworked by PineappleDan
        Bran, the Sleeping Guardian
        +25% increase to :c5rangedstrength:Ranged Combat Strength and +25% :c5food: Growth in all Cities. +15:c5culture:Culture and :c5gold:Gold when a :c5citizen:Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1:c5happy: Happiness to Following City
        +5 :c5food:Food from Ceilidh Hall.

        Cernunnos, the Horned Stag
        +1 :c5food: Food and :c5gold: Gold from Forests, +1:c5production:Production and :c5science:Science from Jungles. +1:c5faith:Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 :c5culture: from camps and +2:c5culture: from Plantations.
        +2:c5culture: Culture from Ceilidh Hall.

        Dagda, the All-Father
        Dagda, the All-Father
        +1 :c5culture: Culture, :c5gold:Gold, :c5production:Production, and :c5science:Science in your Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
        +2 :c5happy: Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.

        Epona, the Great Mare
        +3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10:c5science:Science, :c5culture:Culture, and :c5food: Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
        +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.

        Lugh, the Skilled One
        +2 :c5culture:Culture, :c5science:Science, :c5food:Food, and :c5gold: Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% Wonder :c5production:Production
        +3 :c5production: Production from Ceilidh Hall.

        Mannanan, Son of the Sea
        +3 :c5food: Food, +3 :c5production: Production, and +3 :c5gold:Gold in coastal Cities. 1:c5production:Production and 1:c5gold:Gold for every 2:c5citizen:Citizens working Sea tiles in your Cities.
        +2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.

        Morrigan, the Harbinger
        Earn :c5gold: Gold, :c5culture:Culture, and :c5goldenage:Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +5 HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory.
        +2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.

        Nuada, the Silver-Handed
        +15% :c5gold:Gold and :c5science:Science from WLTKDs
        +3 :c5gold:Gold, :c5science:Science, and :c5goldenage:Golden Age Points for active active Trade Route to or from the City, and every Unique Luxury Resource on Empire.
        +5 :c5gold: Gold from Ceilidh Hall.

        Ogma, the Learned
        +1 :c5science: Science for every 4 :c5citizen:Citizens in a city. +3 :c5science: Science, :c5culture:Culture, :c5greatperson:Great Scientist Points, and :c5greatperson:Great Artist Points in the :c5capital: Capital. +1:c5production:Production from :greatwork:Great Works
        +5 :c5science: Science from Ceilidh Hall.

        Rhiannon the Sovereign
        +2 :c5culture:Culture in every City. +1 :c5gold: Gold and :c5production: Production from every improved resource.
        +5 :c5goldenage: Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.
Pantheon Changes
    Stars and Sky - added +1f to Tundra w/ Resources
Founder Changes
    Council of Elders - fixed bug, bumped starting value to 30
Unit
    Colonist - comes at Railroad; Pioneer obsoletes at Railroad
World Size
    Adjusted Tech/Policy cost scaling per city to 5% across the board for all map sizes
    Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)
    
Project Changes
    Public Works - bumped empire mod to 10% (Was 5%)
    
Improvement Changes
    Forts - +1s base;
        bumped tech gains by +1
Policies
    Progress - scaler/opener - bumped Culture to 15 (was 10)
Tenet Changes
    MI-Complex - Forts back on the menu bby

Discuss!
Gazeeeeeebo

 

[ElliotS]

Pantheon Changes
Stars and Sky - added +1f to Tundra w/ Resources

Please let it work on snow.

Otherwise really looking good!

 

[chicorbeef]

Pretty awesome changes, I think they're all good! It's going to be interesting to see how 5% / costs are going to play on Standard map sizes, but I think it's a good change!

 

[Deljade]

Why are we making techs go faster on larger maps? Did anyone ask for this?

 

[stii]

It only goes faster if you have more cities, bigger maps should by default just mean more players each with roughly the same amount of space.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Looks great! Very keen to try out the new forts, as well as the updated DealAI, DiploAI, and fixed religion . Perhaps I will even try playing the Celts if I'm feeling brave enough to learn a new civ! ^^

 

[Deljade]

It only goes faster if you have more cities, bigger maps should by default just mean more players each with roughly the same amount of space.

Players get more cities on larger maps, on average, with the amount of civs most players like to run, unless you are saying huge is only for 43 civ games. And warmongering and expansionist AIs get waaaay more cities on larger maps too, especially runaways.

 

[stormfallen]

Made Celtic pantheons easier to read:

Bran, the Sleeping Guardian

• +25% increase to Ranged Combat Strength and +25% Growth in all Cities. +15Culture and Gold when a Citizen is born, scaling with Era. +1 Happiness to Following City
• +5 Food from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Culture increased from 10 to 15, gold added. Ceilidh Hall bonus changed to 5 food from 4 faith (thanks Legen).

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag

• +1 Food and Gold from Forests, +1Production and Science from Jungles. +1Faith from unimproved forest and jungles. +1 from camps and +2 from Plantations.
• +2 Culture from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Culture from plantations added.

Dagda, the All-Father

• +1 Culture, Gold, Production, and Science in your Capital, and for every 4 Followers of your Pantheon in owned cities.
• +2 Happiness from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Now gives 1 of each yield baseline, and scalar decreased from 3 to 4.

Epona, the Great Mare

• +3 Border Growth in every City. Receive +10Science, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand, scaling with Era.
• +5 Border Growth from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes Border growth added, gold removed, culture added, yields increased from 8 to 10. Ceilidh Hall yield changed from 4 food to 5 border growth.

Lugh, the Skilled One

• +2 Culture, Science, Food, and Gold in Cities with a Specialist. +10% Wonder Production
• +3 Production from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: 10% wonder production added.

Mannanan, Son of the Sea

• +3 Food, +3 Production, and +3 Gold in coastal Cities. 1Production and 1Gold for every 2Citizens working Sea tiles in your Cities.
• +2 Great Admiral Points from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Gold decreased from 4 to 3. Sea tile bonus added.

Morrigan, the Harbinger

• Earn Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points if you kill a unit. +5 HP healed per turn in Friendly Territory.
• +2 Great General Points from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Healing bonus added.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed

• +15% Gold and Science from WLTKDs
• +3 Gold, Science, and Golden Age Points for active active Trade Route to or from the City, and every Unique Luxury Resource on Empire.
• +5 Gold from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Non-Ceilidh Hall bonuses completely reworked.
• Old: +1 culture for every 10 gold per turn, capped at half the followers in the city. +1 golden age points for every 5 science per turn, and +3 gold from city connections.

Ogma, the Learned

• +1 Science for every 4 Citizens in a city. +3 Science, Culture, Great Scientist Points, and Great Artist Points in the Capital. +1Production from Great Works
• +5 Science from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Great Artist points and production from Great Works added.

Rhiannon the Sovereign

• +2 Culture in every City. +1 Gold and Production from every improved resource.
• +5 Golden Age Points from Ceilidh Hall.
• Changes: Removed "normal improvement" clause from resource bonus.

 

[skodkim]

Very happy with changes and hoping for a release very soon

\Skodkim

 

[Milae]

Why are we making techs go faster on larger maps? Did anyone ask for this?

Players get more cities on larger maps, on average, with the amount of civs most players like to run, unless you are saying huge is only for 43 civ games. And warmongering and expansionist AIs get waaaay more cities on larger maps too, especially runaways.

This way will be nicer for the start because there is little difference between being on a huge map compared to small for the first era or two so it is weird to have different tech costs from the start.

I agree with your point though that as the game goes on, on larger maps people usually end up with more cities = much more science usually.

Perhaps a modifier that scales with era would be a good solution? For example 1-2% tech cost increase per era on standard map size instead of the flat 10% cost increase standard had before.

 

[Stalker0]

Though its only two lines, this is by far the biggest change in this patch:

Adjusted Tech/Policy cost scaling per city to 5% across the board for all map sizes
Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)

So does line 2 here somewhat counter line 1....or is tech speed flat out increasing on a standard size map?


I don't have any strong opinions on Celt pantheon, I don't play them enough to have a good feel. The rest of the changes look solid to me.

 

[Deljade]

    Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)

For anyone that does not know, currently, there is a mechanic in place making techs cost more on larger maps. This was a system from vanilla and has been passed down to VP for as long as I've been playing. And, looking at the history in Github, most of us have been playing with it the entire time. The numbers are currently as follows (you can confirm in your game's database);
Duel, Tiny and Small - 100% tech cost
Standard - 110% tech cost
Large - 120% tech cost
Huge - 130% tech cost

So, any guesses as to why the vanilla devs would implement this kind of scaling of tech costs between sizes? Well, I think that simple math indicates that civs in larger maps put out more . Even with added civs past the default numbers, and you can go and look at how many civs players of different map sizes play with, this is the people's mod after all, this is still true, as the ceiling, and by extension the average players put out will be higher, the larger the map. Therefore, this was an attempt to normalise the tech rates between map sizes.

This is good and all but what does the change mean? In essence, unlocking techs will be faster for sizes of Standard and higher. Standard techs will be further accelerated by the city penalty being changed. What for? Is there a reason for this change? Because, to me, it seems more based on principle, rather than feedback and player experience "the tech rate and city penalty should be the same for all sizes". Even disregarding the fact that this will have the exact opposite effect of normalising the experience between different map sizes, why should we accelerate the tech rate all across the board?

Since it's not Gazebo's style to respond directly, I will put forth my questions to the populus;
Do we want techs to be faster? And they will be faster regardless of the size you play at. I am speaking from the Huge player's perspective wherein the tech cost will go from 130% to 100% -but the city penalty will stay the same- which means that techs will unlock around 23% faster than they did before. We all realise how substantial that is, I hope.
Let's consider what the accelerated tech rate implies;
-Less time spent between unlocking one tech and the next... well duh. Units and buildings will become available faster. Do we really want the gap between finishing the essential buildings in our cities and unlocking the next essential buildings to be smaller? Do we want that time where we decide if we should get an extra Longswordsman or Knight after finishing our Stables and Armories and before unlocking the Universities to be smaller or nonexistent? I think this is the same whatever your tech progression is in each game, there are gaps where you have a bit of leeway to get an extra unit, a worker, a diplomat, a less essential building for that city, a public work etc. Do we hate these gaps so much that we seek to eradicate them by making techs go by faster?
-Making units obsolete (even) faster. Not much to say here, less time to experience each era's warfare in a game. Epic speed will move towards Standard, Standard speed will move towards Quick, and Quick.. you can see where this is going.
-Swaying the balance between victory types heavily, albeit unpredictibly. It's true that CV and DV rely on some key techs themselves, but I still think SV is clearly favoured by this change, now gets even less turns to overtake and has less opportunity to create . Same with DV as assembling delegates becomes more hectic due to the increased pressure from SV. Why should we go through this imbalance?
-Games become quicker in general. If we wanted quicker games, we would play on a faster speed.

Now, of course this was -supposedly- a mistake and the tech rates were -supposed- to be the same across the board. By looking at older versions of VP we can see that this was not the case for many years, at the very least. Therefore, most of us spent the entirety of our VP playtime with vanilla scaling tech rates between sizes. This is how we played our games. In the next patch the tech rate will become faster I definitely could just modify my own files and play the way I am used to. But, being interested in the direction and development of this mod, I just want to make sure that this is a conscious change and that the people do indeed want their techs to go faster.

----------------

Oh, and of course, while I do believe a serious and comprehensive and, most of all, inclusive discussion is due for the above changes, I appreciate the rest of the patch, especially the bug fixes. I really want the balanced, definitive, stable, gold version to finally arrive, so that we can just each focus on customising our experience with submods etc.

 

[pineappledan]

Improvement Changes
   Forts - +1s base;
        bumped tech gains by +1

That sounds... too strong.

I only wanted to add +1 yield somewhere, this is +5 yields.

My wishlist for this patch:

• Nerf for Zulu promotions, the last patch was too much.
• Change England White tower to replace Ironworks

 

[ElliotS]

For anyone that does not know, currently, there is a mechanic in place making techs cost more on larger maps. This was a system from vanilla and has been passed down to VP for as long as I've been playing. And, looking at the history in Github, most of us have been playing with it the entire time. The numbers are currently as follows (you can confirm in your game's database);
Duel, Tiny and Small - 100% tech cost
Standard - 110% tech cost
Large - 120% tech cost
Huge - 130% tech cost

So, any guesses as to why the vanilla devs would implement this kind of scaling of tech costs between sizes? Well, I think that simple math indicates that civs in larger maps put out more . Even with added civs past the default numbers, and you can go and look at how many civs players of different map sizes play with, this is the people's mod after all, this is still true, as the ceiling, and by extension the average players put out will be higher, the larger the map. Therefore, this was an attempt to normalise the tech rates between map sizes.

This is good and all but what does the change mean? In essence, unlocking techs will be faster for sizes of Standard and higher. Standard techs will be further accelerated by the city penalty being changed. What for? Is there a reason for this change? Because, to me, it seems more based on principle, rather than feedback and player experience "the tech rate and city penalty should be the same for all sizes". Even disregarding the fact that this will have the exact opposite effect of normalising the experience between different map sizes, why should we accelerate the tech rate all across the board?

Since it's not Gazebo's style to respond directly, I will put forth my questions to the populus;
Do we want techs to be faster? And they will be faster regardless of the size you play at. I am speaking from the Huge player's perspective wherein the tech cost will go from 130% to 100% -but the city penalty will stay the same- which means that techs will unlock around 23% faster than they did before. We all realise how substantial that is, I hope.
Let's consider what the accelerated tech rate implies;
-Less time spent between unlocking one tech and the next... well duh. Units and buildings will become available faster. Do we really want the gap between finishing the essential buildings in our cities and unlocking the next essential buildings to be smaller? Do we want that time where we decide if we should get an extra Longswordsman or Knight after finishing our Stables and Armories and before unlocking the Universities to be smaller or nonexistent? I think this is the same whatever your tech progression is in each game, there are gaps where you have a bit of leeway to get an extra unit, a worker, a diplomat, a less essential building for that city, a public work etc. Do we hate these gaps so much that we seek to eradicate them by making techs go by faster?
-Making units obsolete (even) faster. Not much to say here, less time to experience each era's warfare in a game. Epic speed will move towards Standard, Standard speed will move towards Quick, and Quick.. you can see where this is going.
-Swaying the balance between victory types heavily, albeit unpredictibly. It's true that CV and DV rely on some key techs themselves, but I still think SV is clearly favoured by this change, now gets even less turns to overtake and has less opportunity to create . Same with DV as assembling delegates becomes more hectic due to the increased pressure from SV. Why should we go through this imbalance?
-Games become quicker in general. If we wanted quicker games, we would play on a faster speed.

Now, of course this was -supposedly- a mistake and the tech rates were -supposed- to be the same across the board. By looking at older versions of VP we can see that this was not the case for many years, at the very least. Therefore, most of us spent the entirety of our VP playtime with vanilla scaling tech rates between sizes. This is how we played our games. In the next patch the tech rate will become faster I definitely could just modify my own files and play the way I am used to. But, being interested in the direction and development of this mod, I just want to make sure that this is a conscious change and that the people do indeed want their techs to go faster.

----------------

Oh, and of course, while I do believe a serious and comprehensive and, most of all, inclusive discussion is due for the above changes, I appreciate the rest of the patch, especially the bug fixes. I really want the balanced, definitive, stable, gold version to finally arrive, so that we can just each focus on customising our experience with submods etc.

The line "Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)" never says it will be set to 100% on all map sizes. I would assume it will be around 110-120%.

That said if we see science going much faster on larger maps, the "Tech cost per map size" would be a better thing to adjust based on map size. If there is a lot more science on large and huge maps because of having more cities producing the same around of science, then the city penalty should be the same and the map-size tech costs can be adjusted. However let's give it a chance to see if that's the case. I'm sure G will keep his eye on it, and we can report our experiences as well.

 

[ElliotS]

World Size
Adjusted Tech/Policy cost scaling per city to 5% across the board for all map sizes
Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)

I actually just realized... Nothing has been done to wide's tourism penalty, which has been seen as the harshest and most overdone aspect of wide being too weak.

It got less discussion because it's one of the things everyone pretty much agreed on from the get-go.

Can we see some adjustments to Wide's tourism penalty?

 

[Gazebo]

World Size
Adjusted Tech/Policy cost scaling per city to 5% across the board for all map sizes
Adjusted TechCost based on map size to not modify value(s)

I actually just realized... Nothing has been done to wide's tourism penalty, which has been seen as the harshest and most overdone aspect of wide being too weak.

It got less discussion because it's one of the things everyone pretty much agreed on from the get-go.

Can we see some adjustments to Wide's tourism penalty?

it is included as a piggyback with the other changes.

 

[skodkim]

it is included as a piggyback with the other changes.

Meaning what? (Maybe it's just my English skills)

\Skodkim

 

[InkAxis]

bumped tech gains by +1

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Does this mean that every tech that previously gave +1 science or production now gives +2?

Otherwise, the changes look good.

 

[Milae]

Improvement Changes Forts - +1s base; bumped tech gains by +1

Might be a little too much, forts are already quite good with the policy buffs to them (including MI complex), when I had Imperialism and Autocracy I would usually build as many forts as I could later on.

If you want to balance late game improvements I would suggest:
1. Buff Oil Wells - They don't get any extra yields from policies/ideologies like other improvements
2. Slight buff to Villages - They aren't in any Ideology buffs either.
3. GP improvements (particularly Towns/Manufactories) are not so much better than normal improvements later.
4. Some unique improvements fall off as well. Perhaps they should be included into buffs similar improvements get? e.g. Terraced Farms included with farm buffs, Brazilwood camp with logging camp buffs.

 

[Stalker0]

So if we assume 5 cities is your “standard TALL”, than for most games on standard the tech speed is going to increase 10% for the fastest teching civs (aka your pace cars). This is assuming no other changes slow down the tech rate.

I can say I have no desire to make teching quicker overall, so I do think at least a 10% increase in tech costs on standard maps should accompany this. This will keep the pace of the game for the tall science civs roughly the same while letting wider civs catch up a bit more