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Upcoming Version - Changes and Additions (11/18)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Nov 19, 2014.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hey all,

    I'm about to get super-busy on non-civ stuff again, so I'm working nonstop to get a full build out the door. What do I mean 'full build?' Well, I've been working hard on the last four policy branches, and ideologies, in order to have a working version of changes for all of them. I've also been hard at work refining the happiness system further, and, as always, balancing out existing features.

    Changes:

     
  2. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    OMG :goodjob:

    \Skodkim
     
  3. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Warlord

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    This is amazing! I cannot wait to test it!
     
  4. lockstep

    lockstep Prince

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    Please include also the "at war with oneself" bugfix from whowards latest DLL version 66.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I already fixed that a while back.
    G
     
  6. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Warlord

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    The changes to the ideologies seem confusing a bit. Some suggestions:

    Adding atolls to the Exploitation tenet of the Imperialism tree.

    Incorporating the suggestion about ranged units dealing damage that is proportionally weaker when the enemy unit is lower on health. (damage dealt = (damage that would dealt) * (((1/2 + ((health of unit targeted )/ 200) ) )

    Updating the CSD patronage tree to close the gap between CBP and CBP+CSD

    Fishing boats on fish being less broken? 7 food with a lighthouse is a LOT. More than lake Victoria...

    Does "Turnpikes: +4 Gold from all your land trade routes. Maintenance paid on Roads and Railroads reduced by 50%." stack with the liberty policy that removes 50% maintenance off of Roads and Railroads maintenance?

    Does "Clausewitz - Free Policy" exist just so we can get access to tier 2 ideology things a bit faster?

    Could we have a policy that gives 1 or 2 science on ocean tiles, somewhere deep in the Knowledge tree?

    Perhaps you could use the Pro-rata building purchase in the new commerce tree?

    Once again, amazing work!
     
  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Good points. I'll address below:

    1. Atolls already have yields, whereas the others don't. I guess I could add it (as atolls are rare, and need some incentives sometimes).

    2. Proportional damage is tricky, especially because the AI isn't the smartest when it comes to targeting. I'm going to hold off on this for now.

    3. Once I release this, the CSD tree will be removed (the only changes that will stick will be the GD +25% and GD with faith elements).

    4. At what point do fishing boats become so strong?

    5. Yes. Turnpikes may need to have that reduced to 25%. Is pretty intense.

    6. Perhaps - it is also a guarantee that if the AI takes it, and doesn't use it, that it wasn't a wasted policy. Also thematic (Clausewitz's Legacy allowing for a new 'policy' rapidly feels like a tactical move).

    7. Extra science on ocean tiles feels like a better fit in the Imperialism tree.

    8. Pro-rata would benefit the player at the expense of the AI, unfortunately.

    G
     
  8. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Nice patch but I've got some things I really don't like.

    I feel like the policies connected to buildings are mostly, well, useless. +1 science on gold or military buildings won't be noticeable in the long run since it's already the mid-late game by the time you have it. Compared to what you should be generating at this point it's nothing.

    On the other side the tile-related policies seem overly generous.

    +1 Science and +1 Production from all Strategic Resources as well as +1 food +1 production per weaker tile types is a bit of an overkill in my opinion (the second policy really makes no sense too - I understand SOME sort of bonus but this is way too much. I also don't see why it omits Tundra. Why should tundra be worse off than eternal snow or a desert?) and it terribly contrasts with the weakness of those building-related policies.

    This is a theme I've noticed all over the mod - the policies/beliefs are almost always overly generous when they give you stuff for nothing but are often very unkind and quite unrewarding when they actually require you to perform a certain thing.

    What do I mean? Most policies/tenets which give stuff for doing/building X are mostly terrible. Meritocracy is, quite frankly, worthless. The Founder belief which gives yields for choosing a SP gives so little of each I didn't even notice it go off - I'd probably get more in 2-3 turns of +25% yields in capital during golden age Founder belief. +Food/Gold for border growth is also pretty bad. +1 faith per world wonder thing is like a bad joke - it's going to give you inferior faith to almost all other pantheons at all times. It helps you get the wonders up but you're almost always going to get a late religion.

    Except for insanely generous map situations nearly all pantheons which require at least a minimal effort of upgrading one's tiles are inferior to Ancestor Worship and Science-into-faith thing (I guess the exception is Camp food-faith and nat wonder thing in certain cases). Seriously, by the time I get a Pantheon Ancestor Worship is going to give me 2-3 faith instantly, I probably won't even have a single pasture/whatever upgraded by this time to give me any faith.

    Or that +4 gold per land trade routes. It's bad because I won't be using them anyway, a Cargo Ship costs similar production (unless the less costly Caravan change from Communitas was ninja-implemented, didn't notice that happen yet) and just gives more. At least it's combined with some useful bonus (-50% gold maintenance on roads) but you implied it's getting a nerf to it so it won't be as pretty soon.

    I also really dislike another fine example of the thing I've mentioned:
    National Healthcare (now Autarky) - +1 Food/Science/Gold/Production from City connections (replaced old ability)

    It's a 50% weaker Party Leadership which also requires a city connection and since the capital can't connect with itself, it doesn't benefit. What's the point of this policy? It requires more, gives less. I know it's a tier one ideology compared to a tier 2 but it's inferior even to early game policies. Such a thing wouldn't even be considered a good policy in Trad/Lib/Conquest/Piety - and shouldn't Ideologies be superior to earlier policy trees because they're present later? It gives you almost nothing late game and it even wants you to actually do something for it (...okay, you most likely have those connections anyway but the fact stands).

    In general I think most - if not all - building related policies need buffs while most specialist/tile/tile upgrade ones need nerfs. The building bonuses are mostly irrelevant and unnoticeable while the specialist/tile ones are just completely over the top. Another example is that New World Order's +2 culture for some weak buildings in that very late game - what's the point really? Disorder happiness bonus doesn't matter, isn't there many things which remove/reduce it anyway already? Or +1 culture late game from buildings which can hold great works (I think it at least keeps that +bonus from vanilla to great works but I still think it's underwhelming - especially compared to all those insanely generous things!).

    I think if we're judging by the list then except for the policies which give free buildings or other stuff for free (...obviously, because those are always the most generous of them all in Community Patch) all ideology stuff is nearly completely inferior to stuff like Imperialism.

    Also Dictatorship of Proletariat - does it just give +1 happiness on top of the previous bonuses or were the previous bonuses removed? I don't know why you'd buff a thing which adds +25% science to Factories but since I almost always went Order to get it it's all fine with me.
     
  9. CunningGabe

    CunningGabe Chieftain

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    This particular point of yours I disagree with. Early game, I build Caravans, and with the Caravansery they are pretty good. Maybe I have 3-4 Caravans before I get the opportunity to send out Cargo Ships effectively. Now, when those Caravans come up for renewal, I could scrap them and build or buy Cargo Ships -- but in that case, the extra gold per turn I get for the Cargo Ship must be balanced against the cost of replacing something I already have. I often keep a few Caravans going for a long time, and a +4 bonus (on top of the +4 for the Caravansery) makes them pretty attractive.

    I won't comment on the rest for the moment -- I'm relatively new so I don't have a great feel for balance yet.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    A good rule of thumb when giving feedback- offer an alternative.

    Don't forget that % yield mods are gone, so +1 science actually means a lot more than it used to. Furthermore, not all policies have to be absurdly good - most policy trees have a range of good-to-mediocre policies. This is by design.

    Considering that Snow/Desert/Mountain have no innate bonuses, and settling on/near these things can be risky early on, I don't see this as a problem. The SR bonus is Rationalism's final policy, and is strong, but considering that each city has probably 1-2 SRs around it, it isn't that powerful.

    Generalizations like this aren't terribly useful, and feel a bit like flame. There's no need for this.

    Again, suggestions for improvement are superior to condemnation.

    Again.

    And again.

    So you want Ancestor Worship nerfed a bit? Is that what I'm gleaning from this? It is difficult to parse out your suggestions from your hyperbole.

    So it is bad because you won't be using it? That's an odd complaint.

    And again.

    Finally! :) Okay, so how do you envision this? I like numbers.

    And we're back to this.

    Disorder does matter - I wouldn't discount it.

    That's pretty generalized. Care to explain?

    On top of other bonuses, but Factories now give +3 science instead of +25% science. Yes, a nerf, I know, but a necessary one.

    I appreciate your thorough responses, however I do feel they would benefit from an increase in suggestions and numbers/data, and a decrease in flame. We're in uncharted water here, and there are way more changes going on than 'balance' at this point, so some issues are to be expected. You seem offended at the mere thought of some of these changes, and that's not a terribly useful way of approaching a community project. I'm but a lowly codesmith, and I cannot see the outcome of all things at all times. :)

    Cheers,
    G
     
  11. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Are yield mods gone? I could've sworn I still saw the NC and Monastery have Science modifiers.

    Anyway, in vanilla IIRC Markets gave 2 science. I could be wrong and mistaking it with the mint and probably am. Since you want suggestions, I'd increase the amount of science from those buildings to this.

    Deserts have no innate bonuses but desert hills have them. Wasn't the reason for removing Petra's food/production because AI couldn't really choose well whether a city actually would benefit from it? The rationalism policy I agree about, it isn't a big deal.


    Sorry if you perceive it that way but I just mean the policies which give you things instantly aren't exactly the most generous in this mod.

    I don't mean the mod should go overboard like Communitas where the faith-for-GP thingy was a must-have but most of these things could easily use having their outputs doubled or something else added on top.



    Meritocracy is pretty easy to fix - just put a +GP generation rate on top of it and it would become okay. Maybe +points to other non-GWAM GPs after one is created? Or +1/2 to generation of the GP (from GM/GE/GS) which has generated the least Great People points in a city? Slightly encourages getting different Great People every time but it's double edged because you may not want a Great Merchant as much as you'd want an Engineer.

    +Gold/Food for border growth of Tribute (not sure about the name?) could use a tiny bump, to be honest it's not as bad as I made it out to be before but it's definitely underwhelming. How about an additional +3-5 gold per turn for every terrified city state? Or maybe no Influence loss for stealing CS lands with a Citadel (rare but useful considering how often they have good natural wonders). Encourages bullying, makes it so your big military doesn't hurt your income so much and in a way does fit the name.

    World Wonder one would probably be fine if it also involved the National wonders. Benefits higher difficulty players too, gives less faith but at least speeds up your National College.


    Well tbh I go Ancestor Worship every game (unless surrounded by things I can put a camp on or if I see some neat natural wonders), I doubt there's a single pantheon in the game which can work every game and is never bad (well this and +1 faith for 10 science both are like that but science is slightly inferior in terms of faith from my experience - at least early on).

    I am fine with this pantheon being better but AI should really prioritise it over the others. I take it even when my capital is in one of the "good" situations and has 3 cows and 2 horses nearby.

    I'd be using it if that heavy Communitas caravan cost reduction was implemented but right now I get Caravans only if there's no other ways to connect with a certain CS to get free Influence.

    Hm, maybe make it so Autarky also grants Workers instant Pillaged Tile repair which has no movement cost? An unique thing which would probably prove useful after a conquest, still on the weaker side probably but not too bad. Sort of fits Autocracy by itself, Autarky a bit less but it could be interpreted as the local work force helping the workers get their economy back up. Could become abusable though if pillaging and repairing trick I saw someone mention still works.

    I personally love numbers. Big numbers.

    Basically, I'd double most of the building related numbers. +1 science on buildings into at least +2 science so it becomes more noticeable. +2 culture on late game buildings like Constabularies/Police Stations is not good so I'd up it into 3-4 or just give them something else, like +10% production for the city for each - makes sense, police would often force oppressed people to work for free in Nazi Germany. If you don't want to use yield mods then maybe just +3-5 production each.

    Also I don't think the snow/desert/mountain policy will help the AI as much as it will the player. I can just settle in a desert hill area and enjoy a free old Petra everywhere (does it also affect flood plains? The policy doesn't mention that it doesn't. If it does desert cities will suddenly become the powerhouses of the world which would be a bit weird I think).

    So what'd I do? I'd change it into +1 production to each of these tiles and Tundra (perhaps exclude Flood Plains and Desert/Tundra Hills?) - not broken, still encourages expansion in different areas, doesn't make the player unfairly advantaged because he knows a desert hill area is sooner or later going to turn whatever is settled there into the best city ever. If it's bad then I'd include those theoretically excluded tiles back or just add a 50%/25% reduction of border expansion costs into "bad" tiles. Also adds synergy with Tribute from Honour which is a bit related to Imperialism.

    Never saw it hurt my cities much myself but then I rarely reach Industrial Era (felt slightly unfinished before, I'm certain with the new policies it'll become more interesting though).


    Looked at it again and I'm no longer so sure about this one so let's forget it (if those which don't mention a complete replacement of the Policy still keep the old things that is) - there's bad apples to be sure but it's fine to have them when you have many options like in the case of Ideologies.

    But yes, Creative Expression could use it's numbers being at least doubled. It's very late in the game, +1 culture on any building/great work is not going to make a big change.

    On the other hand if it goes over the top then a tourism victory will be made harder. Maybe make it give +3 tourism and/or Golden Age points for each building which may hold great works? Also has a synergy with Freedom's golden age bonuses.

    Ehhhh, the only reason I went Order is gone. At least it got other cool stuff to play with and the others are about on pair now.

    I'd suggest perhaps increasing the science to about +5 but then +50% faster factories is a good thing by itself so I don't know if it's needed.

    Sorry if you've felt it's flame - it's just how I write things. I'm certainly not offended, I just don't know how to write it "kinder" as English is not my first language. Seems pretty nice to me but I'm probably wrong - to be honest you're not the first person who doesn't like how I write things so you may have a point there.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Now this, this I can work with!

    Your numbers are helpful, though I don't think throwing 'more and more' yield bonuses on buildings via policies is a foolproof idea, necessarily. If we keep upping the ante, so to speak, there's an element of yield inflation that comes back into play. I say, at least for this build, we stick with the +1s and the +2s, and then see how the policies play out. I'd rather not over-tweak the initial version until it has some human testing under its belt.

    That said, when we decide to boost such policies, feel free to tell me 'I told you so.' :)

    G
     
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    It's cool to see the mod move on. Even if I don't really have time to play or test right now, please allow me some first observations. They are not really about balance because that requires testing..., and of course I only quote the stuff I have something to add to:

    Spoiler :
     
  14. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    This update looks positively awesome!

    Just a couple of notes:

    1. +1 yield on snow mountain and desert tiles: This still leaves them pretty useless. Unless of course it also applies to flood plains. Maybe consider making +1 yield for 3 resources (Food, production, and gold maybe?)

    2. Autarky: By the time you pick this tenet, +1 yields on everything (except culture, which it doesn't provide) will likely become irrelevant. Maybe consider increasing it to +2 each? Also the capital wouldn't benefit from this from what I can tell. A shame since I like picking Autocracy to indulge my inner dictator :(
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Alright, I've done a bit more work. Changelog below:

    G
     
  16. NigelC

    NigelC Chieftain

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    Looking good, can't wait to try it out!
     
  17. Gp_123

    Gp_123 Chieftain

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    May i ask when this is going to be released ?
     
  18. Valvts

    Valvts A Plant

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    G I think your work is amazing, I highly support your direction with the vanilla policies. Is there a chance that higher happiness, lets say around 20-30, will actually benefit your yields like in Beyond Earth?
    Because I see a lot of happiness upgrades and other then GA points and passing the 0 threshold it is pretty much useless...

    Maybe a specific policy that increase tourism output based of your excess happiness, for example:
    Tourism modifier to Civs with less Happiness then you(a policy that in vanilla), or Tourism increased if you maintain above 30 happiness(maybe 20% increase)?

    With that said you could add late game Policy that gives +Production for every Citizen in each city, down to 2 Citizens, based on your happiness values :
    50/Happiness * 2C (Means=>) 50 happiness +1P for every 2C, 25 happiness +1P for every 4C, 12.5 happiness +1P for every 8C and so on....
    Something around these lines, that way pumping happiness policies actually have a tactical benefit other then just get out of 0 happiness threshold and get some GA points :O

    Also my last suggestion, if you are with me to this point(I wont hold grudge if not :)) ,will be to implement a policy that gives you a sums of Gold based on your current total,
    the same as in BE and some other modes that I saw(I don't remember), it works basically like that:
    Get 2% of your current Gold in treasury every turn up to 100G per turn.
    Why I like it because it possess some strategical dilemmas - Do I purchase unit/building now and lose that sweet gold per turn from the policy,
    or do I save just a little bit to pump another 80G per turn for maximum effect in the long run, cash wise?
    On that note, implementing policies that gives you bonuses based on your
    total Gold in treasury, up to a certain point(Im counting the AI that will have 800K G on Diety)?

    Thanks for the hard work and good weekend!
     
  19. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    Autarky and Exploitation look better now.

    I don't suppose we can stick in a +1 or +2 to embarked movement speed in a policy somewhere? It'd certainly be nice for colonization across oceans or for the late game (I'm thinking Imperialism).

    Faster embarked units would also help the AI a bit and help prevent their embarked traffic jams.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We'll see!
    G
     

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