[GS] Updating and reworking Vanilla and RnF Civ

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Really disappointing. Many of the GS Civs are close to be OP and they leave possibly the weakest of the Vanilla Civs untouched. Very poor balance in my opinion.

I'm not sure the GS civs are OP. I'd say the dev team has done a good job of resisting power-creep in favour of making the new civs different, but not necessarily better.

I understand the disappointment that weaker civs didn't get a balance pass, but very few things got a balance pass in GS (based on what we know right now). Getting rid of the Military Tactics leaf tech is probably the most meaningful balance change.

 

[treadwin]

Thank you for answering.

Really disappointing. Many of the GS Civs are close to be OP and they leave possibly the weakest of the Vanilla Civs untouched. Very poor balance in my opinion.

There are a couple that are OP IMO and no one has discussed some of the negatives to existing Civs. For example Gitarja is going to have a lot of floods to deal with, due to her adjacency bonuses for lakes and coasts. Ditto the Dutch. And I am not convinced it is a buff to Civs with industrial zone benefits. Having to power all those zones is going to limit spamming them. Also, if there are going to be more strategic resources spread about, that is going to increase tile production, so industrial zones may be less useful.

 

[acluewithout]

I’m disappointed more existing Civs didn’t get another look.

But that said. A heap of Civs have just got a massive back door buff via improvements to Militiary Tactics, Pikemen, Industrial Zones, Diplomatic Flavour from Suzerain, Military and Wild Card Slots being more powerful, Harbours and Coastal Cities being buffed, improved pillaging yields and some unit gaps being filled.

And, a few Civs have had some really fun flavour added - e.g. China’s buff is, well, kind of odd but also just sort of randomly cool, and America’s buff is awesome.

So... yeah. Maybe FXS have done enough at least until we see how the new mechanics pan out.

But my guess is maybe Giorgia might still need a buff to building walls so they actually reach their UI, and maybe a couple of other Civs might need a little bit of love.

 

[Casworon]

I am very curious to see how its all going to play out. I'm actually thinking of just playing the vanilla completely un-modded for a month or two to really get an idea of where everything stands. (Though maybe a mod to give the AI +5 combat strength, think that's just needed).

I think lot's of the Civ's have been buffed through backdoor changes. Civs specializing in food being buffed through more population dependent governor promotions and Norway getting the pillage buffs. I'm excited to see how its all going to play out.

I think the really big change is Divine Architect for Moksha. Faith can be really powerful now being able to purchase units, buildings and districts. A big boost to Religious and faith civs

Tbh i'm more excited about giving old civ's a spin than the new ones

 

[IvoryPavane]

There are a couple that are OP IMO and no one has discussed some of the negatives to existing Civs. For example Gitarja is going to have a lot of floods to deal with, due to her adjacency bonuses for lakes and coasts. Ditto the Dutch. And I am not convinced it is a buff to Civs with industrial zone benefits. Having to power all those zones is going to limit spamming them. Also, if there are going to be more strategic resources spread about, that is going to increase tile production, so industrial zones may be less useful.

Think we will need to see how it shakes out. It seems like coastal flooding isn’t nearly as intense as I suspected it and it seems to be entirely within player control for the most part too.

For the Dutch, I’m more concerned about her districts on Rivers. Great bath time maybe!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Think we will need to see how it shakes out. It seems like coastal flooding isn’t nearly as intense as I suspected it and it seems to be entirely within player control for the most part too.

For the Dutch, I’m more concerned about her districts on Rivers. Great bath time maybe!

From the looks of the livestreams, coasts look more crooked and coastal flooding will make dents in straight coasts, so there's more places to build Polders.

 

[IvoryPavane]

From the looks of the livestreams, coasts look more crooked and coastal flooding will make dents in straight coasts, so there's more places to build Polders.

I am here for more Polders! I want them everywhere!

 

[Al Bundy]

I'm not sure the GS civs are OP. I'd say the dev team has done a good job of resisting power-creep in favour of making the new civs different, but not necessarily better.

With all due respect, saying that Hungary or Ottomans (for example) are not necessarily better than Spain or France feels like we are talking about two different games.

 

[Giskler]

Most of the vanilla civs are subpar at best when compared to GS & R&F civs.

 

[treadwin]

With all due respect, saying that Hungary or Ottomans (for example) are not necessarily better than Spain or France feels like we are talking about two different games.

I think this goes back to the people who play build games against the AI and those that play mostly conquest high difficulty or multiplayer games. There really is a large dichotomy between the two groups.

 

[Sagax]

With all due respect, saying that Hungary or Ottomans (for example) are not necessarily better than Spain or France feels like we are talking about two different games.

Bad comparison.... Spain maybe, but France is deceptively strong with CdM’s espionage game.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

The vanilla civs range from very strong (Sumeria, Aztec, Rome, etc.) to weak (Spain, nerfed England, Egypt) with still some great civs thrown in (Greece, Germany, Russia)

DLC civs are the overwhelmingly strong ones. Indonesia, Persia, Australia, Macedon, Nubia.

R+F is actually more balanced like vanilla. You have a top tier with Korea, but there's also Georgia, on the other hand. Netherlands, Mongolia, and Zulu are strong. Scotland and Mapuche are more weak and Chandy is still India. Again, a mix of power levels.

I think the new GS civs fit in really well with the existing civs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

So now we know China unlocks Canals at Masonry instead of Steam Power. That's a substantial difference, but it's mostly in the flavor department unless you can route some Trade Routes through them.

Can builders use a charge on them to speed up production or do you have to wait for military engineers?

 

[Haggbart]

The vanilla civs range from very strong (Sumeria, Aztec, Rome, etc.) to weak (Spain, nerfed England, Egypt) with still some great civs thrown in (Greece, Germany, Russia)

DLC civs are the overwhelmingly strong ones. Indonesia, Persia, Australia, Macedon, Nubia.

R+F is actually more balanced like vanilla. You have a top tier with Korea, but there's also Georgia, on the other hand. Netherlands, Mongolia, and Zulu are strong. Scotland and Mapuche are more weak and Chandy is still India. Again, a mix of power levels.

I think the new GS civs fit in really well with the existing civs.

A few of the RF civs are so boring I can't even remember them. At least they deserve credit for being a fair bit more creative this time.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Can builders use a charge on them to speed up production or do you have to wait for military engineers?

As far as I know, China's Builder rushing ability still just works on ancient and classical wonders.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

A few of the RF civs are so boring I can't even remember them. At least they deserve credit for being a fair bit more creative this time.

The worst example of the blandness has to be the 10 turns leader bonuses. They're just lazy design and don't make the civs truly unique. Persia and Australia already had them as DLC civs. Not only did they just copy abilities, they made them weaker.

Plus I hate how they are temporary bonuses, from a strictly gameplay view.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The worst example of the blandness has to be the 10 turns leader bonuses.

I was getting tired of cultural bombs, personally. Then they snuck another one onto fishing boats for the Maori in GS. Ah well.

 

[The googles do nothing]

The worst example of the blandness has to be the 10 turns leader bonuses. They're just lazy design and don't make the civs truly unique. Persia and Australia already had them as DLC civs. Not only did they just copy abilities, they made them weaker.

Plus I hate how they are temporary bonuses, from a strictly gameplay view.

Those really need to be tied into the diplomatic system so the bonuses are not automatic. They should also be made available to all civs with just a bonus to some civs. As it is were got imersion breaking events like immediately declaring war on Genghis before he can send a trade route or never declaring war on Australia having causes belli.

 

[Gali]

I think Egypt got a pretty substantial buff. Iteru now applies to all river tiles not just flood plains which means it will be a lot more useful. Especially since they can use flood plains freely and save time on producing the dam while keeping all the fertility bonuses from floods. Much more thematic to Egypt. Late game they might want dams because they can produce 6 free power.

Also alliances got even more powerful since they also provide diplo favor per level and she gets them faster. The changes to grievances should allow more warmongering without becoming a pariah which will help maintain the alliances. Trade routes got even more powerful which aid her bonus.

Japan got a nice bonus with the hurricanes but most of its buffs are the result of new systems. IZ adjacency is now massive since you can double dip with coal plants, and run the 100% adjacency card. Civs that can boost that adjacency like Germany, the Netherlands and Japan can really use the new system. I had a Iz with 14 adjacency in my last Japan game. That's 28! production base which might allow us to actually build things. Factories will become more powerful when powered and IZ will be more useful.

 

[Sagax]

Iteru now applies to all river tiles not just flood plains which means it will be a lot more useful.

Iteru has always applied to all river tiles. The floodplain component that Egypt used to have was the fact that you could build districts and wonders on them - while other civs could not. In GS with the increased number of floodplains, now every civ can build on floodplains as normal. Which is part of the reason why Egypt got an update.