Upgrade unbuildable unit?

[Wyrmshadow]

Here's the idea:

I make the UN a small wonder.I NEVER liked the diplomatic victory. That small wonder is able to build Ripptide's UN M113 apc. Zero attack, only for defence, no nationality. SO you can deploy them inside the borders of hostile civs but you can't attack with them. A later tech allows you to upgrade themto the UN Warrior MICV also by Ripptide. I don't want to be able to build the Warrior, just upgrade my UN M-113's.

Has this sort of thing been tried yet?

 

[aaglo]

I think that some people have had similar thoughts about using the Balou's peacekeeper-unit. But I don't know if that upgrading is possible (I think that you can upgrade to units you can build). But perhaps there's a way around it.

I'm not sure if the attack = 0 would work. I've heard, that for the unit to be able to defend, it must have attack value greater than zero (I haven't tested it myself though).

 

[Goldflash]

Unless the unit is buildable by your civ, you can't upgrade any unit to it.

 

[cemo1956]

That sounds a good idea. But why upgrade ? If the smallwonder is producing a set number of M113's that will be like using old equipment later on. A new small wonder later on in the Tech tree can produce the newer Warriors. You should still be stuck with the M113 like many UN forces are even today.
I am in process of testing such an idea, and had upgrading in mind but cancelled it with the thought of not getting stronger units easy via an upgrade.
The limit in producing units is IMHO important, so that those units just doesn't keep popping up an mass.

If I get around testing it I post my findings.

Cemo

 

[Madeira]

Yes Wyrm you can!
Make the M113 unbuildable and created by the wonder as you said, then make the Warrior available with whatever tech you want, but give it the 'King' flag. Neither you or the AI can build such units, they dont show up in the build list if they have the king flag. But you can upgrade to it!! One problem, but not in your case: If the unit you're upgrading from is a buildable unit, suppose you're building it in one of your cities, then you research some tech, then that city would automatically change production to the 'king' unit, even though you're not supposed to be able to build it. But since the unit you're upgrading from in your case is buildable by the UN, you wont have that problem. But the M113s will continue to be created by the wonder even after you have the Warriors available.

Its a nice idea for an alternate use for the UN wonder, but aaglo is right, you cant give it the defensive strategy unless it has both att and def power, the AI wouldnt know how to use it.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

SO give it an attack of just 1? Just like the real UN.

About the 2nd wonder.... Perhaps anyone can build an expensive UN smallwonder, but only those with uranium can build the Secuirity Council wonder and build more powerful units with it?

 

[Dom Pedro II]

SO give it an attack of just 1? Just like the real UN.

About the 2nd wonder.... Perhaps anyone can build an expensive UN smallwonder, but only those with uranium can build the Secuirity Council wonder and build more powerful units with it?

The Attack of 1 is pretty much just as good as a zero attack. In the modern era, neither the AI or the human player will be likely to attack anything with only 1 Attack to work with... unless they happen to come across some unfortunate Warrior that never was upgraded.

Only problem with the "king" unit suggestion is that I don't know if the AI will send King units out rather than hoarding them at home...

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Since when does the UN actually attack?
My point is to make a "peace keeping" force that willbe ableto deploy anywhere in the world, have hidden nationality, and be just a defensive mobile "wall" that belligerants would waste their attacks on.

Because, if you have essentially pirate units(UN) and you are allied, then your allies will not delcare war on an attacker if that said attacker decides to kill one of your UN units. So that way a possible brushfire war does not escalate into a world war. And you can make them very strong defensively. Maybe he AI won't use them, but they could be veryusefull if you want to play some real world politics in Civ3. I say giveit anattack of zero or 1 so that no one can invade a city with purely UN units and essentially get a free city without going to war with someone. I discovered this when I made the mounted Bandit a type of pirate cavalry.... I could attack my neighbors and they would be none the wiser. And vise-versa.

 

[Goldflash]

Since when does the UN actually attack?

Korea, 1950.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

Korea, 1950.

That was basically a US operation with a lot of help from other nations in the organization. Look at other UN operations like after the Suez in 1956 or the many Isreali-Arab wars.It's the UN that sits onthe border bewteen the two hostiles.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Since when does the UN actually attack?
My point is to make a "peace keeping" force that willbe ableto deploy anywhere in the world, have hidden nationality, and be just a defensive mobile "wall" that belligerants would waste their attacks on.

Because, if you have essentially pirate units(UN) and you are allied, then your allies will not delcare war on an attacker if that said attacker decides to kill one of your UN units. So that way a possible brushfire war does not escalate into a world war. And you can make them very strong defensively. Maybe he AI won't use them, but they could be veryusefull if you want to play some real world politics in Civ3. I say giveit anattack of zero or 1 so that no one can invade a city with purely UN units and essentially get a free city without going to war with someone. I discovered this when I made the mounted Bandit a type of pirate cavalry.... I could attack my neighbors and they would be none the wiser. And vise-versa.

I was under the impression that hidden nationality units can't capture a city without declaring war... hmmm... oh well.

In any event, I think the Attack 1 will work just fine. As I said, nobody will use it for Attack with such a low attack rating. However, that said (and I think this will need to be tested), I think that this unit should have the Attack AI flag. My reasoning for that is if it's given a defensive flag, it will essentially sit in the city as a fortified unit. But if you give it the Attack flag, the AI will actually send it out into other countries. The sticking point is that I'm not sure if they AI is so dumb that it will actually initiate battle with this unit. But, if it's got a brain cell or two, it'll send this unit into enemy territory and wait to be attacked as you intend it to do.

 

[Wyrmshadow]

New Idea: all small wonders
UN Member: Balou's Peacekeeper
UN Secruity Council: Ripptide's UN M-113
Permanent Secruity Council Member: Ripptide's UN Warrior

 

[Mr. Do]

Madeira explained it all pretty perfectly, so if you're willing to lose the regicide game mode then it'll work fine. DPII's king problem can get in the way, but it is fixable, it's just I can't remember if you work around it by setting each civ's king unit to "none", or just don't enable the "king" strategy of whatever unit has the king flag. It's simpler than I explain it.

Also a unit with attack of one will still probably attempt to capture workers. You could probably explain that away as refugees...

 

[Zeekater]

Hm, King Unit, sounds like a neat idea

 

[Madeira]

Yea. Well, I tested the king unit idea with Settlers, made both Workers and Settlers unbuildable, workers are created by a city improvement, while settlers have the 'king' flag (just the flag, not ai strategy!). Then I make the worker unit upgrade to the settler unit. Made the settler cost a good ammount of shields (even though you'll never build them) so the upgrade costs a good ammount of money (still have to play balance this). Play tested long enough to test this, some AI civs seem to have saved enough gold because after a few dozen turns i saw 2 or 3 civs had a new city.

Hmm.. note: I have a few goody huts here and there, so there's a possibility those cities came from goody huts, but i think its unlikely because the huts wouldnt last the few dozen turns it took for the cities to show up, and their locations sugest they were colonized by a settler originating in the civ's own territory. Anyway I first tested this over a month ago with debug mode on and I saw the AI send the settlers with 'king' flag to settle

Oh, one other thing, the AI only seems to like to upgrade offensive and defensive units, I had no success trying to have them upgrade worker units, or artillery units for instances.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Yea. Well, I tested the king unit idea with Settlers, made both Workers and Settlers unbuildable, workers are created by a city improvement, while settlers have the 'king' flag (just the flag, not ai strategy!). Then I make the worker unit upgrade to the settler unit. Made the settler cost a good ammount of shields (even though you'll never build them) so the upgrade costs a good ammount of money (still have to play balance this). Play tested long enough to test this, some AI civs seem to have saved enough gold because after a few dozen turns i saw 2 or 3 civs had a new city.

Hmm.. note: I have a few goody huts here and there, so there's a possibility those cities came from goody huts, but i think its unlikely because the huts wouldnt last the few dozen turns it took for the cities to show up, and their locations sugest they were colonized by a settler originating in the civ's own territory. Anyway I first tested this over a month ago with debug mode on and I saw the AI send the settlers with 'king' flag to settle

Oh, one other thing, the AI only seems to like to upgrade offensive and defensive units, I had no success trying to have them upgrade worker units, or artillery units for instances.

Muito brigado!

This could also be an interesting way to slow down the mass city-building at the beginning of the game...

 

[Mr. Do]

NB something else I meant to ask was if it's possible to actually disable the regicide game mode entirely? Although it's not like I'll ever be releasing any mods with regicide-upgrade paths I've implemented, I still don't like being able to choose to play a regicide game...

 

[embryodead]

Mr. Do, yes and no. You can disable Regicide by fixing the rules in Scenario Properties, but then you are making all the rules either enabled or disabled which can work ok for scenarios but not mods.

 

[WildWeazel]

AI usually wont attack with a unit that weak except in extreme circumstances, especially if it doesn't have the attack flag, so giving it 1 attack should be ok.

 

[Madeira]

Well, I have something to add to the '1 attack' discussion as well, i've told you how i use workers to upgrade to settlers, but in order for this to be possible workers have to be created by city improvements only, and they need to be an offensive/defensive unit so the AI will upgrade them. I gave them the defensive and worker strategies, so to give it the defensive strategy i had to give them 1 att and def, meaning they're not capturable either. Well, the AI uses them to invade my territory! I dont remember if they actually attacked my defending units, I do remember them attacking my own working workers