US Army Caught Lying About Another Death

[Formaldehyde]

OMG we should disband our army

OMG, we should teach them to tell the truth or spend the rest of their lives in prison for deliberately lying.

 

[MobBoss]

Not without any outward signs it isn't. You apparently know as much about poisonous snakes as you do about the ongoing lies practiced by the US military to cover up their own faults and general incompetence.

I grew up in Eastern Arkansas with slow wide rivers and a lot of swamps and creeks. I have first hand experience dealing with water moccasins. Hell, I have had them drop in my johnboat out of trees while fishing....NOT a fun experience.

What if the soldier died before those 'outward signs' manifested themselves? As I said, the snakebite could have contributed to his death, but not been the main reason for it. Venom could have sent him into shock, and accelerated his heat injury/dehydration.

Again, WHAT LIE was comitted here? There was some circumstantial evidence at the scene to indicate a venomous snake could have contributed to the boys death. Again, you have been watching too much CSI: Miami I guess.

Are you alleging that something was covered up here? That there was some kind of conspiracy? If so, please explain what.

 

[amadeus]

OMG, we should teach them to tell the truth or spend the rest of their lives in prison for deliberately lying.

And the army lied because...?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I grew up in Eastern Arkansas with slow wide rivers and a lot of swamps and creeks.

Well good for you, Guess where this individual and his father spent their entire lives? But you wouldn't know that because you apparently failed to even read the article yet again before apologizing yet again for obvious military misconduct.

Here's a clue. You can't die from a cottonmouth without it being patently obvious that you have been bitten, since it doesn't look in the least like "scratches".


Link to video.

Now, how exactly didn't you know that obvious fact with your extensive "background" in poisonous snakes and the US military deliberately lying on a regular basis to cover itself?

 

[MobBoss]

Well good for you, Guess where this individual spent his entire life? But you wouldn't know that because you failed to even read the article again before apologizing yet again for obvious military misconduct.

I guess you think you are scoring points by being purposefully insulting.

Your're not.

In fact, your not even trying to discuss the merits here. Because you dont really have any evidence on your side. Just like your silly comment about where he spent his life....what has that got to do with anything? Does it provide immunity from being bit by a snake? No. Your argument, as usual, is circling the toilet on its way to be flushed, so, in response, the only thing you can do is fling insults while you go down the drain. Typical.

I did read the article. Like I said, I read it twice even before I wrote a single word in this thread.

Again, the investigator said the cause of death could have been snakebite, heat injury, or dehydration.....or parts of all three...they just werent sure which.

 

[lovett]

“Never attribute to malice that which can be solely attributed to Ignorance”

 

[MobBoss]

Here's a clue. You can't die from a venomous snake without it being patently obvious that you have been bitten, since it doesn't look in the least like "scratches".

Actually, thats not entirely true. While I appreciate your googled photos there, they are not exclusive to how one can be bitten by a venomous snake. Nice effort tho.

And without a comparsion of what the spot that was alleged to be a bite on the back of the soldiers hand, you cant really compare anything at all. For all you know, the soldiers had could have looked like some of your photos.../shrug.

Now how exactly wouldn't you know that obvious fact with your supposed "background" in both poisonous and the lies the US military perpetuates on a regular basis?

What....do you actually think all snakebites have to look like the few you posted here?

Really?

Funny.

 

[aelf]

Only if they thought his death odd somehow. Real life isnt like CSI on tv....but a lot of people dont realize that...

This was an accidental training death. Soldier was still dead regardless of whether it was a snake bite, heat, dehydration or a combination of all three. It wasnt ruled a murder, or suspecious so they didnt test his blood, dust him for prints, or do bullet analysis on his weapon.

But it was odd enough that they couldn't explain it. And I'm pretty sure the possibility of poison merits a blood test.

Are you saying that they shouldn't bother to find out for his family?

 

[Formaldehyde]

In fact, your not even trying to discuss the merits here..

I just love irony, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics

 

[MobBoss]

But it was odd enough that they couldn't explain it.

Are you saying that they shouldn't bother to find out for his family?

I am saying it wasnt a murder, but a simple training accident.

They did explain it....and then in the ensuing investigation of it, came to the conclusion that the explanation wasnt as thorough as it could have been and thus the story in the OP occurs.

Again, all this weeping and gnashing of teeth here when what I see is the Army actually coming forward and saying they could have done a better job at determing this boys death. I see that as being honest, not trying to cover up some 'lie' as the OP alleges.

I just love irony, don't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologetics

A hint. Try posting something that supports your allegation instead of whining about your opponents. It helps when making a point.

/flush.

 

[aelf]

I am saying it wasnt a murder, but a simple training accident.

They did explain it....and then in the ensuing investigation of it, came to the conclusion that the explanation wasnt as through as it could have been and thus the story in the OP occurs.

And I'm pretty sure the possibility of poison merits a blood test.

Again, all this weeping and gnashing of teeth here when what I see is the Army actually coming forward and saying they could have done a better job at determing this boys death. I see that as being honest, not trying to cover up some 'lie' as the OP alleges.

I think it's good that they are taking some responsibility. But the having no funds excuse for a blood test was pathetic. And it seems like the CID grunts weren't too good when dealing with the family.

Dunno, singing praises of the army doesn't seem right either. And the job isn't done.

 

[woody60707]

I have no idea what this "instant envenomation" nonsense is. Venom doesn't work that way, especially Water Moccasin venom. And snakes don't empty their venom sacks in a single bite, either. I also like that it was conveniently found nearby, despite them arriving long after the supposed bite.

Baby/young snake do sometimes use all there Venom in one bite, adult snakes don't. It's why they say bites from young snake are worse then adult one's. And while convenient, not outrageously so. And there is no evidence to show they lied about finding the snake. Only that it was foolhardy to link the two.

“Never attribute to malice that which can be solely attributed to Ignorance”

This pretty much sums it up. This title has nothing to do with the story. It was the Army that is looking in to this with NO outside influences.

 

[capslock]

Having a GPS transmitter and such doesn't do much good when you have guys that just won't quit. Using it = quiting and most of these guys won't do that, they would (and do) collapse before quitting.

Land nav events are tough to supervise because you have to send guys out for a long time on their own. They should have a basic idea where each soldier is though, based on the points he's got, but a delerious heat stroke victim might wander off a bit.

Sucks to lose guys in training, but we have to train. And they should have done a better job finding the cause of death before trying to explain it.

 

[Patroklos]

The fact that this guy grew up in a rural area in no way means he is immune from snake bites.

In any case, there is no lie here, Form is pretending to read what he wants to read as per usual. The investigation found scratches on his hand consistant with a bite puncture (not hard to repilicate by any thorny bush) and the visible reaction to heat exhaustion is very similar to that of a snake bit (nervous system shutdown).

Could they have been more through and tested for venom? Yes. Did anyone lie or in any way manipulate or alter information? No.

I have no idea what this "instant envenomation" nonsense is. Venom doesn't work that way, especially Water Moccasin venom. And snakes don't empty their venom sacks in a single bite, either. I also like that it was conveniently found nearby, despite them arriving long after the supposed bite.

You obviously have no idea how this works. You will feel the effects almost immediately, but you will have quite a while to limp around until it overwhelms you. He would have known he was in trouble, which is why him making it to the designated emergency road would have made sense, but not being in a state of mind to light off flares or activate GPS. This would also be very similar to heat exhaustion conditions.

My guess is they didn't want another death blamed on heat stroke because it shows a general callousness and lack of proper supervision.

Except they were given GPS emergency locators, a nearby extraction point, and flares, not to mention water stations at each checkpoint. That and it was pushed to night time where the temperature would have been significantly lower, and no there is nothing abnormal about do land nav at night. This dog won't hunt for you Form.

No, its quite clear they blatantly made stuff up.

No, its not. In fact nothing in the article or anything said here even remotely points to the Army making anything up. In fact, there is nothing refuting that he did die from a snake bite.

I also notices you didn't even attempt to back up your BS about venom.

Not without any outward signs it isn't. You apparently know as much about poisonous snakes as you do about the ongoing lies and deceit of the US military

There were outward signs, perhaps you should read your own article.

Having a GPS transmitter and such doesn't do much good when you have guys that just won't quit. Using it = quiting and most of these guys won't do that, they would (and do) collapse before quitting.

Please refrain from pretending what you see on "The Unit" is in any way analogous to real life. In reality these guys are trained to remove themselves from training/operations at the first signs of them being compromised. Not only because it is best for them, but because them pretending they are 100% when they are not endangerous their team members and the mission.

FYI: If it was heat exhaustion it is not shocking that he had two canteens. Often times those undergoing heat exhaustion do not understand exactly what is wrong before becoming delerious, and usually at that stage drinking water many times won't help at that point.

 

[Patroklos]

And not that anyone really bothers to consider Form creditable these days, but of the three pictures he posted only the first is a cotton mouth bite. The second is lifed from a rattlesnake page and the third is unlabled.

It is good that Form decided to lie in this thread, it allows us to better understand how the Army did not lie in this case.

BTW, can somebody PLEASE explain to Form what irony is via PM? It was cute the first thousand times he did it wrong but now it is just highly annoying. Maybe one of you who attack your banner to his sinking ship so often, Cheezy or the like, could help him out a bit.

 

[capslock]

Please refrain from pretending what you see on "The Unit" is in any way analogous to real life. In reality these guys are trained to remove themselves from training/operations at the first signs of them being compromised. Not only because it is best for them, but because them pretending they are 100% when they are not endangerous their team members and the mission.

I don't know what the unit is. I'm talking about what I've seen. Remove yourself from a Company run (or any physical event) and see how that goes over with your peers or evaluators, lol. Remember these guys are being evaluated, they aren't "there" yet.

 

[Patroklos]

I don't know what the unit is. I'm talking about what I've seen. Remove yourself from a Company run (or any physical event) and see how that goes over with your peers or evaluators, lol. Remember these guys are being evaluated, they aren't "there" yet.

Green Berets. Pass out on a company run without having told anyone about experiancing symptons and see how that goes over with your peers and evaluators. The Green Berets are not looking for badasses, if you were even selected for it you already are one. They are looking for mature and compotent operators.

 

[capslock]

They aren't Green Berets....

this happened at selection. amd alot of them enlisted straight into it. All they know is what they were taught at basic, ait, and SOPC. No experience to fall back on.

edit: oh, "The Unit" is Green Berets. Is it a TV show, a book?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

You obviously have no idea how this works. You will feel the effects almost immediately, but you will have quite a while to limp around until it overwhelms you.

That overwhelmment (word?) comes after a series of hours at the very least. The Water Moccasin has the second least potent venom of any pit viper in the States, the least powerful being the copperhead. You basically have to be allergic or in really crappy shape to die from it, and it would happen in more time than a day. The original story was that he was "instantly envenomated" because the fangs went into his blood stream and put the venom there directly, so he died almost instantly. This is completely pseudoscience. That's what I meant by "it doesn't work that way." I know damn well how it works, because I know how every poison of every poisonous creature that lives around me works, and how to treat it. Its a product of living in the woods in the country.

He would have known he was in trouble, which is why him making it to the designated emergency road would have made sense, but not being in a state of mind to light off flares or activate GPS.

Again, there's no such thing as an instantaneous effect from a snake bite, apart from pain. But I'm not debating his presence of mind, I'm debating the snake bite story. Its just so silly that its stupid.

This would also be very similar to heat exhaustion conditions.

Actually, the only thing in a water moccasin's bite that could cause that sort of thing by itself is the thinning of the blood, which creates low blood pressure. Now, the article said that he might have had some heart condition, so its possible that this combined to give him a heart attack or fibrillation or something that caused a heart attack, but even that takes a period of hours to set in, and is by no means instantaneous.

Of course, if this guy was such a snake genius, he would have known the first thing you do is tie the wounded area off, and the second is to purposefully keep your heart rate down, both to stem the spreading of venom.

EDIT: Oh, right, I forgot the whole "no wound" thing. Cottonmouth bites create hemorrhages and large blisters around the site of the bite, which sometimes develops into necrosis. Its kind of like a rattlesnake bite, but far less potent. By no means fun, and the wounds are by no means invisible at any time until you're fully healed.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: Formaldehyde:

I don't have time to review this in depth. It smells like a troll thread, so I have closed it. If you believe this to be in error, please PM me with your reasoning.

As for everyone else: Don't get personal.