v 25, Bugs/Crashes reporting thread

[Dancing Hoskuld]

should i reinstall the game?

I think that would be best.

Well, when you've figured out how to make it as good as a human, let me know. But if you have some techs that, say, Isabella doesn't have, then all you have to do is demand some valuable resource from her, then use the resource to get even more techs? Doesn't that defeat the point of no tech brokering? Wouldn't even humans fall for that? Speaking of which, how complicated can it be for the AI? If I disable resource trading entirely, are you telling me that the AI can't properly value techs without resources? This isn't making sense at all.

Trading of resources is what trade is all about. Or are you saying that the value placed on resources and the value placed on technologies are not comparable? Resource trading which is not for resources or gold per turn should expire after the standard time. Those which are don't expire until one of you decide to end it.

Tech brokering = not being able to trade techs that you have not studied. I don't see where this fits into your argument but then I rarely play with that option on. If you don't want techs trading why not just turn tech trade off - if that is what you are talking about.

 

[Koshling]

One other thing about tech trading- since the tech tree is so enormous, the individual techs themselves are worth a lot less. Does the AI know how to handle that?

That's a nonsense argument as can clearly be seen by projecting it. Suppose the game had an infinite number of techs and an infinite timeline (or if you really want to argue mathemicas, and unbounded number, and let it tend to infinity). Since at any point in time you are within the current era, the number of possible far future techs does not effect the value of current techs. Otherwise tech values for a completely standard bts game would be incorrect for any hypothetical expansion that added far future techs even if they were never reached, and if you a assume an inverse value to total number of techs all techs would be worth zero, even though gameplay is TOTALLY unaltered until you reach said far future where the new tech line cuts in...by which time if you are value the earlier techs at zero you are quite quite dead due to having made terrible earlier decisions.

 

[Slarki]

The overall city maintenance cost dont fall when I abadon a city.

 

[Mouthwash]

I think that would be best.



Trading of resources is what trade is all about. Or are you saying that the value placed on resources and the value placed on technologies are not comparable? Resource trading which is not for resources or gold per turn should expire after the standard time. Those which are don't expire until one of you decide to end it.

Tech brokering = not being able to trade techs that you have not studied. I don't see where this fits into your argument but then I rarely play with that option on. If you don't want techs trading why not just turn tech trade off - if that is what you are talking about.

You don't understand what I was talking about. Disabling tech brokering means you can't trade for Metal Casting, then get a bunch of techs from trading Metal Casting. Resource for tech trades allow you to circumvent that. There really isn't any good reason why it isn't an option.

 

[Mouthwash]

That's a nonsense argument as can clearly be seen by projecting it. Suppose the game had an infinite number of techs and an infinite timeline (or if you really want to argue mathemicas, and unbounded number, and let it tend to infinity). Since at any point in time you are within the current era, the number of possible far future techs does not effect the value of current techs. Otherwise tech values for a completely standard bts game would be incorrect for any hypothetical expansion that added far future techs even if they were never reached, and if you a assume an inverse value to total number of techs all techs would be worth zero, even though gameplay is TOTALLY unaltered until you reach said far future where the new tech line cuts in...by which time if you are value the earlier techs at zero you are quite quite dead due to having made terrible earlier decisions.

I didn't realize we were arguing... I just asked a question.

Actually, I meant that since the tree was so stretched, an individual tech would hardly ever give you what you need. Example: Bronze Working lets you chop axemen in Vanilla. Axe Making lets you build axemen, but you can't chop. See the difference? (If you need more examples, just look at how many individual "fishing" techs there are in the mod).

 

[Cyrusfan]

Given the glut of gold so many of us (and the AI I've seen) seem to be accumulating most of the time, I actually think techs are undervalued. My first couple of successful games I found I had accidentally let the next three players keep pace with me tech wise because I sold every time they asked (default behavior on my part left over from earlier mods) and they never ran out of money.

Koshling, does the AI value tech to gold at some rate based on the base cost of the tech, its current cost to that player or how many turns it would take to accumulate the stuff on either side of the trade?

(Not trying to be difficult, just brainstorming)

 

[Desolator]

I noticed if Divine Prophet option is ON (religion is founded by a great prophet, not by a technology), the AI is still spending a lot of research on the now totally (?) dead end religion techs. (Shamanism, Tengriism, Druidism, Yoruba, and so on)
The AI is still reserching these techs, which hampers their progress.
The AI does not know they have no value, but a human player knows and won't trade anything for them.

It is not a bug per se, but i think enabling Divine Prophets option should disable these now defunct religion techs, if that is possible. (Or is there any reason to research these with DP on? I did not notice any.)

On a second note I think religion tech trading has no real meaning even if DP is off, because the first discovery matters (religion founding), if someone already discovered eg. shamanism, there is nothing to gain (except good relations) by trading for those techs.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

On a second note I think religion tech trading has no real meaning even if DP is off, because the first discovery matters (religion founding), if someone already discovered eg. shamanism, there is nothing to gain (except good relations) by trading for those techs.

There is a tag which would stop trading of these techs but it would not stop the AI researching them.

 

[Koshling]

You don't understand what I was talking about. Disabling tech brokering means you can't trade for Metal Casting, then get a bunch of techs from trading Metal Casting. Resource for tech trades allow you to circumvent that. There really isn't any good reason why it isn't an option.

Ah, I think this could be a bug then if I understand you correctly. No tech brokering should prevent you making ANY sort of trade with a tech you didnt discover yourself, so if that option is on you should not be able to trade a tech you didn't discover yourself for a resource (i.e. - should control whether said tech is available in ANY trade, not just tech-for-tech trades). Thus (with no tech brokering) if you trade for Metal Casting you should not then be able to offer Metal Casting to anyone for resources.

Can you confirm that no-tech-brokering is currently NOT preventing this? If so (independently of any potential decision to make tech-<non-tech> trades an option, I will fix this.

 

[Koshling]

I noticed if Divine Prophet option is ON (religion is founded by a great prophet, not by a technology), the AI is still spending a lot of research on the now totally (?) dead end religion techs. (Shamanism, Tengriism, Druidism, Yoruba, and so on)
The AI is still reserching these techs, which hampers their progress.
The AI does not know they have no value, but a human player knows and won't trade anything for them.

It is not a bug per se, but i think enabling Divine Prophets option should disable these now defunct religion techs, if that is possible. (Or is there any reason to research these with DP on? I did not notice any.)

This is one for Thunderbrd to take, since he's the Divine Prophet guy on the team.

On a second note I think religion tech trading has no real meaning even if DP is off, because the first discovery matters (religion founding), if someone already discovered eg. shamanism, there is nothing to gain (except good relations) by trading for those techs.

Agreed. Please provide a save game where the AI is prepared to offer something for such a tech and I'll look into it.

 

[strategyonly]

On a second note I think religion tech trading has no real meaning even if DP is off, because the first discovery matters (religion founding), if someone already discovered eg. shamanism, there is nothing to gain (except good relations) by trading for those techs.

Agreed. Please provide a save game where the AI is prepared to offer something for such a tech and I'll look into it.

Well there is also this, if this matters?? Example below is for Shamanism:

Spoiler :

			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>8</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>5</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>

 

[Taxman66]

Minor reference bug
On the Choose a new Tech pop-up Sid's Tip for Tengrism is missing (TXT_KEY_ ...)

Probable/Possible map bug
Playing on the C2C Perfectworld2 (or whatever it is exactly called) 'Large' map, I have a permafrost woods tile, probably where it shouldn't be. Just a bit north of the equator and between two large deserts. I can post a save file later if desired.

Possible(?) map bug
Same map as above. After trying to find more information about the unique culture builds, I learned that each has its own set of unique requirements. Then, to my disappointment, I learned that it appears impossible for me to be the culture linked to my starting CIV. I'm playing Russia/Peter (via random determination) and have fur/beaver and woods (lots of muddy woods) but no Tundra. The only Tundra is off on a 6-7 tile island, but that has no fur access and is on small continent at the bottom of the map (with lots of permafrost and ice), again with no fur. If this isn't a bug, and rather a 'random' feature then I appologize and will take this to another thread.

 

[Vokarya]

SVN 3391: I have found a bug with the <FreeAreaBuildings> tag (to place a free building in every city on the same continent). This tag is clashing with the cache somehow. I noticed this when I was playing around with Maginot Line.

Here is what I can do to reproduce the bug.

• Start C2C.
• Exit Civ4 completely.
• Start C2C again.
• Go to the Civilopedia and mouse over Maginot Line. The free Barricades that it is supposed to grant are missing.
• Exit Civ4 again.
• Clear the cache.
• Start C2C.
• Go to the Civilopedia and mouse over Maginot Line. The free Barricades are back.

I also managed to collect the following save games. This may help run down the bug.
ML Test is about to build the Line.
ML2 Test has built the Line but has no Barricades.
ML3 Test has built the Line and has the Barricades.

 

[Koshling]

SVN 3391: I have found a bug with the <FreeAreaBuildings> tag (to place a free building in every city on the same continent). This tag is clashing with the cache somehow. I noticed this when I was playing around with Maginot Line.

Here is what I can do to reproduce the bug.

• Start C2C.
• Exit Civ4 completely.
• Start C2C again.
• Go to the Civilopedia and mouse over Maginot Line. The free Barricades that it is supposed to grant are missing.
• Exit Civ4 again.
• Clear the cache.
• Start C2C.
• Go to the Civilopedia and mouse over Maginot Line. The free Barricades are back.

I also managed to collect the following save games. This may help run down the bug.
ML Test is about to build the Line.
ML2 Test has built the Line but has no Barricades.
ML3 Test has built the Line and has the Barricades.

Yup - that and the free trade region building tag were both missing from the cache code. I have added them and will push the fix to SVN later today.

 

[Koshling]

Given the glut of gold so many of us (and the AI I've seen) seem to be accumulating most of the time, I actually think techs are undervalued. My first couple of successful games I found I had accidentally let the next three players keep pace with me tech wise because I sold every time they asked (default behavior on my part left over from earlier mods) and they never ran out of money.

Koshling, does the AI value tech to gold at some rate based on the base cost of the tech, its current cost to that player or how many turns it would take to accumulate the stuff on either side of the trade?

(Not trying to be difficult, just brainstorming)

Currently it does this (roughly):

1. Take the cost to it (the player evaluating the value)
2. Subtract any progress towards it that it already has
3. Multiply by a constant factor (gold<->reseach conversion), currently 2/3
4. Increase the cost based on what proportion of players in the game do not know it (so a less widely known tech is valued up)
5. Scale up be the AITechModifier tag value for the tech in question (most don't have one)

I see three obvious improvements that could be easily made:

1. The actual assessed value of the tech should act to modify (or even totally replace maybe) it's research cost [note that this is pobably what is behind the AI not considering dead-end religion techs for already founded religions worthless]
2. Modify the research<->gold conversion ratio depending on how short of/rolling in gold it is (if you have a massive treasury gold is relatively valueless so you should consider techs relatively more valuable)
3. Modify the perceived value based on the evaluations of the downstream techs (i.e. - does it help an important research path as opposed to a less valuable one, independent of the tech's own direct value)

None of those changes should be hard to make (just need to find time - it's usually possible to spot things like this whatever area you look closely at, unless it's one that has already had the treatment)

 

[Koshling]

Koshling:

Logs/BBAI/Minidump/and 2 savedgames. End of turn, clicked next turn poof CTD.

SVN 3359

I've spent about 6 hours trying to reproduce this and I can't I can get revolutions to happen but no CTD. Is it somewhat reliable for you?

 

[strategyonly]

I've spent about 6 hours trying to reproduce this and I can't I can get revolutions to happen but no CTD. Is it somewhat reliable for you?

Yes, but like i said, once you GP BACK in a savedgame, revolutions STOP producing itself, even if its the next turn each time, the reset will happen EACH time for some reason ?? DO me a favor then and put the python err in and see if DH or AIAndy can figure out what the heck that error is all about, thx.
And btw not thats dedication

 

[Zain]

There's a typo in the celebrating ruler message, at least for France:
"Paris celebrates TXT_KEY_CIVIC_WE_LOVE_CHEIF" (I think)

 

[strategyonly]

KOSHLING:

Your last SVN dll (3392) is CTDing upon loading all games now???

Attached is all i can get????

 

[Mouthwash]

Ah, I think this could be a bug then if I understand you correctly. No tech brokering should prevent you making ANY sort of trade with a tech you didnt discover yourself, so if that option is on you should not be able to trade a tech you didn't discover yourself for a resource (i.e. - should control whether said tech is available in ANY trade, not just tech-for-tech trades). Thus (with no tech brokering) if you trade for Metal Casting you should not then be able to offer Metal Casting to anyone for resources.

Can you confirm that no-tech-brokering is currently NOT preventing this? If so (independently of any potential decision to make tech-<non-tech> trades an option, I will fix this.

Wait, what? I'm confused now. I thought that that was what it did, and I don't understand your explanation. Even if it isn't, I think I proved that resource for tech trades can be exploited no matter how good the AI is.