v1.982 – v1.482 – v1.182

[Tigranes]

- Wonders required for UHV forbidden to the AI when the human player isn’t yet alive (will make France, Maya and America easier and less dependent on luck)°°

How about making Democracy forbidden for AI with 1775 American start? Spain has built the Statue the very next turn after my America has spawn. And I was waiting for 45 minutes to launch this game...

 

[Walliard]

Just a suggestion: If the classical civs start with 2 workers, how about giving the ancient civs 1 worker and keep the research rate the same for now? (This might help India and Babylon get to their goals)

My current strategy involves founding Lahore on the sugar for the extra commerce from the Marble quarry, not to mention getting away from those nasty jungles. My best time is Monotheism by turn 52. WBing myself a worker at the beginning shaved three turns off, mainly since Lahore had more time to grow. And Emperor is just ridiculous, taking nearly 100 turns with or without a free worker. Either way, Jerusalem gets it as early as turn 35.

Suggestion:
-If the human player is India, delay the auto-founding of Judaism to turn 55-60.
-Give Emperor India the same tech costs as Monarch India for Masonry, Polytheism, and Monotheism. (May still be impossible)

 

[Lone Wolf]

Spain has built the Statue the very next turn after my America has spawn.

In the replay of my American start, Babylon built the Temple of Kukulkan the very moment after Mayans spawned. Maybe the AI starts building a wonder, then leaves 1 turn remaining on it, and right afer the spawning of the civ who needs that wonder for the UHV, buids it?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

As I see it, this patch is not playable for the ancients, and takes the fun out of playing the classicals, simply because:

1. Barbs are rampant and too strong, and once anybody builds the great wall (e.g. blizzrd in Japan), everybody else is doomed to die or be seriously hurt.
(I can see Attila later on, but WTH barb horse archers and camel archers so early in the Middle East?!)
2. Research rate is terribly slow and with no tech brokering, the later you spawn, the better it is, because you can trade YOUR techs for free. Babylon and India were hard already in the last patch, now it's completely impossible.
3. The fault with emperor has not changed: it's still completely impossible with certain civs (almost all the ancients and classicals), instead of really testing the player's skill it's just become an exercise in futility.
4. The lack of squatting "exploits" makes the world more deterministic. No fun at all. I can see why the people who played that Mayan/Japanese SG were so disgusted with RFC after all.
5. More turns for the classicals doesn't mean more opportunity for completing their UHV, in fact, with the slower tech rate, it means that there's absolutely no time for wonders if you want your UHV.

I say return the tech rate to the previous rate (at least until 1AD), undo the early barb spawns, lessen the cost of research in emperor, and let people squat. Squatters rule!

 

[Tigranes]

In the replay of my American start, Babylon built the Temple of Kukulkan the very moment after Mayans spawned. Maybe the AI starts building a wonder, then leaves 1 turn remaining on it, and right afer the spawning of the civ who needs that wonder for the UHV, buids it?

Yeah, I have the same feeling. Looks like patch forbids them from finishing the Wonder, not from actually building it. One can check autosave just a turn prior the birth of Mayans to see in WB what was Babylon doing I myself always chose to have no autosaves to speed up autoplay...

 

[Lone Wolf]

1. Barbs are rampant and too strong, and once anybody builds the great wall (e.g. blizzrd in Japan), everybody else is doomed to die or be seriously hurt.
(I can see Attila later on, but WTH barb horse archers and camel archers so early in the Middle East?!)

If that's really so, I'm giving the Classicals more starting units in my personalized RFC.

2. Research rate is terribly slow and with no tech brokering, the later you spawn, the better it is, because you can trade YOUR techs for free. Babylon and India were hard already in the last patch, now it's completely impossible.

I like No Tech Brokering, but maybe it wasn't a good idea to lower the research speed when the human is present. Especially in the Classic Age, with less opportunities to trade techs.

4. The lack of squatting "exploits" makes the world more deterministic.

It's supposed to be deterministic in that regard. That's why we had city flipping, units betrayal, and all that jazz.

And squating is as "deterministic" as non-squatting. If you always squat, what's the difference between "When you play as Vikings, England is always deterministically doomed, since you build Thetford" and "England is not always doomed, since it at least, has a chance"?

What's the difference between "since you build Breme, the Dutch always not spawn" and "since Breme will flip, the Dutch always will spawn"?

 

[sennomulo]

In the replay of my American start, Babylon built the Temple of Kukulkan the very moment after Mayans spawned. Maybe the AI starts building a wonder, then leaves 1 turn remaining on it, and right afer the spawning of the civ who needs that wonder for the UHV, buids it?

Hmm...I don't think that would explain what you saw. Rhye said:

- Wonders required for UHV forbidden to the AI when the human player isn’t yet alive (will make France, Maya and America easier and less dependent on luck)°°

So anyone should be able to build the Temple of Kukulkan at any time unless you're playing the Mayans, right?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Right. Still, that doesn't explain the Statue of liberty in Kyuouoyouto.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

And squating is as "deterministic" as non-squatting. If you always squat, what's the difference between "When you play as Vikings, England is always deterministically doomed, since you build Thetford" and "England is not always doomed, since it at least, has a chance"?

What's the difference between "since you build Breme, the Dutch always not spawn" and "since Breme will flip, the Dutch always will spawn"?

Not true. Just see how far the Vikings could go--they can squat in France and Germany too in the old days. And the English are STILL doomed, if you prepare your beserke...sorry, AXEMEN and catapults.

And the Dutch do spawn, it just how you prepare for them that matters. If you didn't surround them with your culture I've seen them found 's-Gravenhage (or whatever that's called) in Denmark, which makes Breme very unproductive.

The point is that your capital used to be sacrosanct, now it's not unless it's your only city. (I was going to test if Carthage gets defeated if Roma flips to them if it's their only city) Unhistorical to say the least (it's like having 100% of your culture turn into 100% of another culture) and very frustrating if you want the land and no war. What if Augustus Caesar wanted to move the capital to Spain, France, Germany or even England, and preempt the barbarian invasion? What if the Greeks wanted to keep their culture intact in Asia Minor? What if the Chinese "sinicized" the barbarian Mongols and southern tribes like Khmer by moving their capital there? None of this can happen with the new patch. You see my point about determinism?

IMHO, Rhye is making it so that people are playing more for UHV and staying in their turf rather than other ways to win (like domination or conquest), which make it no fun for people who've already won the UHV many times.

Call me a conservative, but I like the older patches better.

 

[CrossRFC]

I fully agree with AnotherPacifist. I love to squat and now everything is harder in this patch, from UHVs to domination/conquest as AP said

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe everything is my fault since I can game the system, and Rhye's punishing me.

 

[Lone Wolf]

If you didn't surround them with your culture I've seen them found 's-Gravenhage (or whatever that's called) in Denmark, which makes Breme very unproductive.

But since you do, what's the point?

The point is that your capital used to be sacrosanct, now it's not unless it's your only city.

And that's great.

And the English are STILL doomed, if you prepare your beserke...sorry, AXEMEN and catapults.

Still, it requires more preparation and now makes sense.

Not true. Just see how far the Vikings could go--they can squat in France and Germany too in the old days.

Which made it all more deterministic, right? Deterministically, France and Germany were squatted on.

What if Augustus Caesar wanted to move the capital to Spain, France, Germany or even England, and preempt the barbarian invasion?

The barbarians woudn't give a damn, what's "captial", and what's "not capital".

What if the Greeks wanted to keep their culture intact in Asia Minor?

The Turks wouldn't give a damn about Miletus or whatever being a capital.

What if the Chinese "sinicized" the barbarian Mongols by moving their capital there?

Did anyone actually do that?

 

[blizzrd]

1. Barbs are rampant and too strong, and once anybody builds the great wall (e.g. blizzrd in Japan), everybody else is doomed to die or be seriously hurt.

Limited testing so far, but from what I have seen I tend to agree here.

2. Research rate is terribly slow and with no tech brokering, the later you spawn, the better it is, because you can trade YOUR techs for free.

Agree here also. From what I saw the Medieval civs (Spain and later) had a huge tech advantage on the ancient civs. Realistic in terms of replicating history but less challenge in terms of opposing civs to the human player.

Babylon and India were hard already in the last patch, now it's completely impossible.

Haven't tried these to comment.

3. The fault with emperor has not changed: it's still completely impossible with certain civs (almost all the ancients and classicals), instead of really testing the player's skill it's just become an exercise in futility.

I know that emperor UHVs were impossible before for certain civs because of the tech drag. Having extra turns in the classical era won't change this for ancient civs such as Babylon and India (previously impossible on Emperor) or for later civs such as America (needing to research Democracy at a snail's pace before also building SoL).

4. The lack of squatting "exploits" makes the world more deterministic. No fun at all. I can see why the people who played that Mayan/Japanese SG were so disgusted with RFC after all.

I disagree totally. The level of determinism set by spawns and flip zones is a feature of RFC that I am happy with. Allowing human capitals to flip is just fine by me.

5. More turns for the classicals doesn't mean more opportunity for completing their UHV, in fact, with the slower tech rate, it means that there's absolutely no time for wonders if you want your UHV.

See above. I agree.

I say return the tech rate to the previous rate (at least until 1AD), undo the early barb spawns, lessen the cost of research in emperor, and let people squat. Squatters rule!

I am concerned about the tech rate from my limited forays into the new patch, particularly if emperor hasn't gotten any reduction in penalties and it was already impossible for many UHVs on emperor under 1.181.

But sorry AP, I'm happy that squatting has been eliminated, as well no multiple Olympic Parks and that launching a GA with GP has been fixed to no longer eliminate anarchy. Christo Redentor or Indian UP should be the only ways to achieve no anarchy.

I will be doing more testing of the new patch though.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Quote:
Not true. Just see how far the Vikings could go--they can squat in France and Germany too in the old days.

Which made it all more deterministic, right?

No, because then you can go on and do domination or conquest or cultural or UHV if you wanted and not be stuck in Scandinavia.

Quote:
What if Augustus Caesar wanted to move the capital to Spain, France, Germany or even England, and preempt the barbarian invasion?

The barbarians woudn't give a damn, what's "capital", and what's "not capital".

What I meant was if you had culture in those areas, the barbs won't spawn as long as you envelop those areas. Not true for Incans I know (because they still spawn in the mountains) but it's true for other civs.

And also, the Romans would have viewed the Gauls and Germans as "barbarians" and not having a city flip to them there would be considered a good thing.

 

[Lone Wolf]

and that launching a GA with GP has been fixed to no longer eliminate anarchy.

I actually think that anarchy-free switches during the GA should be just brought back.

What I meant was if you had culture in those areas, the barbs won't spawn as long as you envelop those areas. Not true for Incans I know (because they still spawn in the mountains) but it's true for other civs.

What does it has to do with capitals and squatting?

No, because then you can go on and do domination or conquest or cultural or UHV if you wanted and not be stuck in Scandinavia.

I think that the domination limit should just be lowered, except in case when youre playing Germany.

By your logic, the human player having a unit with 99999999 strengh at the start is the best option - he has many victory options opeed for him and can choose just to destroy everyone, or not do destroy anyone at any time.

And I also believe that stability penalties for larger empires should be softened to make other types of victories easier.

And also, the Romans would have viewed the Gauls and Germans as "barbarians" and not having a city flip to them there would be considered a good thing.

The barbarians wouldn't care about what the Romans viewed as a good thing.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yes, the Chinese did eventually "sinicize" the Mongols--the whole Yuan Dynasty was based on Chinese Confucian bureaucracy, and you can even say the same for the later Manchu Dynasty. In fact they were so successful that nobody even speaks or writes the original Mongol or Manju language, while Chinese is alive and well. (Modern Mongolian uses the Cyrillic alphabet)

The Greeks could have easily done the same in Asia Minor were it not for Islam, which BTW could have been founded in India for all we know since we've played RFC so often. And those Turks who were born out of central Asia would have stayed there.

And yes, Portuguese could have easily been a variant of Spanish, just like French/Spanish/Italian are just bastardized versions of Latin if the Roman empire stayed intact.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Greeks could have easily done the same in Asia Minor were it not for Islam, which BTW could have been founded in India for all we know since we've played RFC so often. And those Turks who were born out of central Asia would have stayed there.

And yes, Portuguese could have easily been a variant of Spanish, just like French/Spanish/Italian are just bastardized versions of Latin if the Roman empire stayed intact.

That has nothing to so with moving capitals. And the Turks from Central Asia always do not stay there in RFC.

In RFC Vanilla, the Turks are nonexistent, and Greece can hold onto their Asia Minor cities.

Yes, the Chinese did eventually "sinicize" the Mongols

I meant, did any player actually moved the capital to Karakorum in RFC.

And yes, in real life, the Mongolians were Cinitized. But that was not because the Chinese Emperor decided to move the capital to Mongol lands, or something.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I once moved my Chinese capital 1NE of Karakorum, and boy it did wonders for my stability. Maybe with the new patch I can try it again but only if it was unflippable...

Chinese history is full of near-misses. If the later Sung Dynasty had not been so anemic or if the short-lived Jin Dynasty in the north had not been conquered by the Mongols and instead allied with the Southern Sung, maybe the Mongols would have never ventured out of Mongolia. And guess what that would have done to the Turks who would have just stayed in central Asia, and the Byzantines would still be alive instead of being conquered by the Turks. RFC obviously can't model all this, but having no Mongols to start with either by an unflippable capital with or without a welcoming stack of elephants would help alt-historians like me.

Actually there was an SG with an Indian tank at start, except that they restricted that tank inside Indian territory. I'm not for any "deus ex machina" but more for reasonable, human things like unflippable capitals and unending golden ages. Things you have to work for but reap your due reward in the end.

 

[Lone Wolf]

And guess what that would have done to the Turks who would have just stayed in central Asia, and the Byzantines would still be alive instead of being conquered by the Turks.

Well, if you are playing as Greece, you can't influence Chinese happenings anyway.

if the short-lived Jin Dynasty in the north had not been conquered by the Mongols

That's represented by your opportunity to repel the Mongolians with usual means.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, what if the Greeks (well, Greco-Romans) kept Constantinople, and with the really old versions were able to flip the Turks all the way to the eastern Black Sea? Then we would see more Turkish invasions into Mongol and Chinese lands.

And if the Romans built a Great Wall in the east and was able to man it effectively (not in real life obviously unlike Hadrian's wall), the barbarian pressure would build on China rather than the opposite. So yes, things should be more flexible to favor the human player being able to change history.

I have to add that Rhye did not add the flippable capital thing until I showed him my Greek game with the beta patch. I brought this on myself, me and my big hubris.