v11 feedback

[GeoModder]

I played a game under version 11f this evening. Had the Peacekeeper faction. Normal speed -and map.
The thing is, every so often my credits count would increase by about a hundred. Is there a mechanism that let this happens, like defeating native life?

Btw, better reduce the scale of the Energy Bank. I crops in neighbouring buildings and looks gigantic next to the Energy Nexus. And the shadow seems corrupt too.

 

[Maniac]

I played a game under version 11f this evening. Had the Peacekeeper faction. Normal speed -and map.
The thing is, every so often my credits count would increase by about a hundred. Is there a mechanism that let this happens, like defeating native life?

Nope. If you attach a save of just before it happens, I can investigate the matter.

Btw, better reduce the scale of the Energy Bank. I crops in neighbouring buildings and looks gigantic next to the Energy Nexus. And the shadow seems corrupt too.

Woops. Lord Tirian designed the graphics for 4x2, and it was in 3x1.

***

By the way Pfeffersack, do you still get the python exception when viewing the tech pedia pages?

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Ok, some more feedback and ideas.

1. Wild (probably Irregular too) still doesn't seem to be working quite right. I can freely enter and pillage rival territory but I cannot attack them. Then can, however, attack my wild units freely.

2. More fungus! Tile features can coexist with a resource and an improvement, right? So how about putting fungus on the Pholus Ridge. Makes sense to me, and it would prevent people from using the ridge until they understood Xenobiology.

3. Even more fungus!! How about letting us build fungus under existing improvements without replacing them. It's important for uniques like Manifold Nexus, only a timesaver for normal stuff. Or maybe just start the unique features with fungus already present to show Planet's attempt to reclaim the territory.

4. Jungles rule! Why can we build stuff in jungles without losing the jungle, but not in forests or on fungus? Maybe certain techs/civics should allow improvements on forests, fungus, and hybrid forests.

5. Another thing about Hybrid Forests, it seems odd to me that the production bonus is dependant upon following the Hybrid civic. It would seem more natural to give the production bonus normally. Maybe even give a food bonus for following the civic.

6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

7. More jungles. Can we build a jungle please? Do they spread?

8. It would be neat if, when a forest or fungus spread into each other, it resulted in a hybrid forest.

9. I was thinking about fungus and kelp on trenches as well (they float, right?), but I guess that's just a mechanical failing since they are both features.

10. The ruins icon. I really liked it at first but it looks totally out of place, especially when the borehole cluster, manifold nexus, and garland crater all have a normal picture type icon. Wouldn't the same work for the ruins?

11. Any plans to add the wreckage of the Unity? I like the current implementation of the material supply pods, but having the wreckage as a single tile improvement would be cool. It could give a regular (upgradeable) supply pod when explored. I was trying to think of a suitable tile bonus as well, but it should be pretty unusable I think. Maybe it could give a regular and a material supply pod.

As always, love the mod and thanks for all the work.


Edit: One more little thing. The resource icons on the science advisor screen that show what techs reveal and enable what resources should be reversed. The yellow bordered ones are much more noticeable to me, which makes me think that they would be better suited for the more important enabling techs.

 

[MadmanAtW]

6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

In base Civ/BTS, you need to be working the mine to have a chance of discovering a resource under it.

 

[Lord Tirian]

7. More jungles. Can we build a jungle please? Do they spread?

I actually like that jungles are a bit rare - I feel fungus should be the dominant flora in the game, sounds more true to the original game and fits highlights the fungus <-> forest "conflict".

8. It would be neat if, when a forest or fungus spread into each other, it resulted in a hybrid forest.

This, however, sounds like a cool idea. It should, however, only happen after the discovery of the Pholus Mutagen or very rarely before that.

9. I was thinking about fungus and kelp on trenches as well (they float, right?), but I guess that's just a mechanical failing since they are both features.

Actually, kelp forests only occur in rather shallow water, that stuff (just like fungus) wouldn't grow in the depths of a trench. Plus, trenches - like ridges - slow down and hinder rampant fungus growths; I think that's a rather important function, as it allows the player to take advantage of that to deal with the fungus problem.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

1. Wild (probably Irregular too) still doesn't seem to be working quite right. I can freely enter and pillage rival territory but I cannot attack them. Then can, however, attack my wild units freely.

Please attach a save where this is happening.

2. More fungus! Tile features can coexist with a resource and an improvement, right? So how about putting fungus on the Pholus Ridge. Makes sense to me, and it would prevent people from using the ridge until they understood Xenobiology.

I've changed it so that you also need Xenobiology now to work plots with a planet-providing bonus, such as Monoliths and Pholus Mutagen.

3. Even more fungus!! How about letting us build fungus under existing improvements without replacing them. It's important for uniques like Manifold Nexus, only a timesaver for normal stuff. Or maybe just start the unique features with fungus already present to show Planet's attempt to reclaim the territory.

The Ruins start on fungus. The Manifold Nexus doesn't. One can argue you wouldn't want your central control center to be in the middle of hard-to-control native life, but rather in some safe spot.

5. Another thing about Hybrid Forests, it seems odd to me that the production bonus is dependant upon following the Hybrid civic. It would seem more natural to give the production bonus normally. Maybe even give a food bonus for following the civic.

Hybrid Forests are only meant to be useful under the Hybrid civic.
The Hybrid strategy is supposed to encourage smaller bases than a terraformed ecology. So no food bonus.

10. The ruins icon. I really liked it at first but it looks totally out of place, especially when the borehole cluster, manifold nexus, and garland crater all have a normal picture type icon. Wouldn't the same work for the ruins?

I wouldn't mind that. But I'd like to forward you to Lord Tirian, the creator of the current button, on this matter for his opinion.

11. Any plans to add the wreckage of the Unity?

Only if you can think of a cool effect. (Getting a unit you can get from any other unity pod isn't.)

Edit: One more little thing. The resource icons on the science advisor screen that show what techs reveal and enable what resources should be reversed. The yellow bordered ones are much more noticeable to me, which makes me think that they would be better suited for the more important enabling techs.

That's how I did it at first. But, well, I think those yellow highlight frames are rather ugly. So I used them for revealing boni - that way they show up fewer times.

This, however, sounds like a cool idea. It should, however, only happen after the discovery of the Pholus Mutagen or very rarely before that.

Would you really like to go through the micromanagement of having to plant forests and fungus in a mixed distribution, instead of just letting both fungus and forest upgrade automatically?

 

[Pfeffersack]

By the way Pfeffersack, do you still get the python exception when viewing the tech pedia pages?

Works fine now

6. Do mines really give a chance to discover resources? I know the chance is supposed to be low, but I've tried building mines in every unused tile within my territory and have never found a new resource. Maybe the tile has to be used, but that makes no sense since a used mine will usually already have a resource.

As Madman AtW explained, working the mine is required and for me it works occasionally (though I cannot remember that I have discovered anything else the Crystals). The same mechanism is applied BTW to the Farm-line and Commune improvements (also to Field Labs and Marine labs, but here it seems to be pointless, as the tiles those improvemetns can exist on have already ressources); however I never suceeded with them.

 

[Lord Tirian]

I wouldn't mind that. But I'd like to forward you to Lord Tirian, the creator of the current button, on this matter for his opinion.

After seeing the icon for a while, I agree now. Originally, my plan was making bigger versions of the small icons for the nexus and later for the crater... but it doesn't look as good - they are landmarks and do deserve more than an abstract icon.

Would you really like to go through the micromanagement of having to plant forests and fungus in a mixed distribution, instead of just letting both fungus and forest upgrade automatically?

No, no, I thought in addition to the current mechanism, because I saw potential for interesting developments when terraformer/hybrid borders clash (one side has the forests, the other side the fungus). On a second thought, that sounds like a great deal for the hybrid followers and rather less than great for the terraformers if their forests suddenly start turning into hybrid forests.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

No, no, I thought in addition to the current mechanism, because I saw potential for interesting developments when terraformer/hybrid borders clash (one side has the forests, the other side the fungus). On a second thought, that sounds like a great deal for the hybrid followers and rather less than great for the terraformers if their forests suddenly start turning into hybrid forests.

How about the terraformer auto-clear-fungus also auto restores Hybrid forest to forest?

 

[Maniac]

That already happens automatically, to cover situations where Terraformers might capture Hybrid lands.

 

[WarKirby]

This looks like the closest thing to a bug report thread:

It's possible for fungal blooms to happen on tiles where your units are standing. No native units are created, but a spawning spot still appears. It's only removed when you move antoher unit onto the tile, or move one away and back.





Some random thoughts:

1. Why do flamethrower units only get attack bonuses against native life, rather than general strength. Since it's a close range weapon, it actually works very well when the enemy has to come to you. Seems like they should have bonuses for both attack and defense.

2. Why are formers consumed to build bunkers? It just seems annoying. They seem to be able to materialise parts out of thin air for mines, drilling platforms, outposts, wind farms, etc. Why not bunkers?

3. Why is it that bunkers have artillery capabilities, but actual artillery units do not? the lack of a ranged attack on armour seems confusing since their unitcombat is specifically named "Artillery". Looking through the datalinks, the upper levels of that line don't appear to have ranged attacks either.

4. I think the Flying promotion should give a bonus to visibility range, like in FFH. It seems odd that my choppers can't see any farther than a guy on foot, even though they should be able to see over intervening obstacles from their airborne vantage point.

5. Why no roads? I know there are mag tubes later, but it is rather a long time. The ability to dig out a dirt path, clear foliage etc, is hardly advanced scientific knowledge.

 

[Zuul]

Great People working in a city should be stacked better. You can only see the first 7 or so.

 

[Lord Tirian]

2. Why are formers consumed to build bunkers? It just seems annoying. They seem to be able to materialise parts out of thin air for mines, drilling platforms, outposts, wind farms, etc. Why not bunkers?

I think getting the bunker unit for free (i.e. just former time investment) is too good, so you need to force some sort of investment into it.

3. Why is it that bunkers have artillery capabilities, but actual artillery units do not? the lack of a ranged attack on armour seems confusing since their unitcombat is specifically named "Artillery". Looking through the datalinks, the upper levels of that line don't appear to have ranged attacks either.

The datalinks are probably not specific enough (and this could go into the Beginner's Guide), but artillery units are the only land units with access to the range I & II special abilities and with the collateral damage they deal and the accuracy special ability you can pick, they basically fill the role of tanks and siege rolled together in Planetfall. "Artillery" describes the role pretty well, I think.

5. Why no roads? I know there are mag tubes later, but it is rather a long time. The ability to dig out a dirt path, clear foliage etc, is hardly advanced scientific knowledge.

Maniac's idea behind it is making terrain more relevant and making defender rush less easy to increase the importance of unit position (compare vanilla Civ, where you can rush half your army to any attack within one or two rounds). Also, it makes travel along rivers and coasts more important (which is considerably faster). Personally, I do like the gameplay changes (though it took a while until it grew on me), but it's very different from CivIV.

And I, for one, miss the look and feel of roads, because it looks "civilised". On the other hand, I do feel roads could be "neat" as a human equivalent for fungus movement of native life - if roads would only benefit artillery units (would even highlight their problems with fungus even more)... I see a niche for roads, but you need to convince Maniac of it!

Cheers, LT.

 

[WarKirby]

I think getting the bunker unit for free (i.e. just former time investment) is too good, so you need to force some sort of investment into it.

A cost in energy credits seems like a better option then, I think. there doesn't seem to be much to spend them on as is anyway

The datalinks are probably not specific enough (and this could go into the Beginner's Guide), but artillery units are the only land units with access to the range I & II special abilities and with the collateral damage they deal and the accuracy special ability you can pick, they basically fill the role of tanks and siege rolled together in Planetfall.

It's rather counterintuitive that they have to buy this ability, rather than starting with it. You'd think something with a massive cannon on top would be able to fire it as an inherent thing..

 

[Lord Tirian]

It's rather counterintuitive that they have to buy this ability, rather than starting with it. You'd think something with a massive cannon on top would be able to fire it as an inherent thing..

In my opinion, the accuracy special ability could go and become an inherent ability of both, artillery and cruiser units, to make sure that they are used for siege purposes. But on the range spec ab, I disagree.

CivIV/Planetfall plots are *huge* - firing into adjacent plots or even over a range of two plots is more the scale of SRBMs (i.e. up to 1,000 kms range) than artillery cannons.

For me, the Range ability always represented missile launchers, huge long-range railguns and the appropriate targeting equipment and things like that - not just a big artillery-style cannon.

Cheers, LT.

 

[WarKirby]

Another thought. Is it intended that we can't build things in kelp? I used to love having kelp under my mining platforms. Now it seems to be either/or, and ocean is a lot less appealing now.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Kelp does get the shaft, I only use it when absolutely necessary. Forests can't be built in/upon either but at least they're worthwhile on their own.

 

[Maniac]

It's possible for fungal blooms to happen on tiles where your units are standing. No native units are created, but a spawning spot still appears. It's only removed when you move antoher unit onto the tile, or move one away and back.

Thanks, I'll check it out. For the record, in case you need to plug a single plot to prevent fungus from entering an area, Bunkers prevent fungal blooms on its plot.

Some random thoughts:

You argue based on realism in all your points. However if you want me to change something, it should be something that improves gameplay, or is more realistic but has no negative effect on gameplay.

A cost in energy credits seems like a better option then, I think. there doesn't seem to be much to spend them on as is anyway

Even though this situation occurs less than in vanilla Civ4, I like the ability to turn formers into something useful (bunkers) after I run out of plots to terraform.

 

[Lord Tirian]

You argue based on realism in all your points. However if you want me to change something, it should be something that improves gameplay, or is more realistic but has no negative effect on gameplay.

By the way, the question about accuracy has popped up more than once. And I think with the renaming of the treaded units to artillery units, it has become pretty clear that their purpose is, indeed, attacking human fortifications.

However, I feel that base bombarding is much more fundamental and important than collateral damage - I suspect that's also why you allow access to accuracy rather early. It is a mechanism that makes base assault viable - whereas collateral damage is more "stack busting", which is pretty important too, but not as fundamental in a strategic sense.

So, from my point of view, making base bombardment inherent of artillery and cruiser units would make their role and niche much clearer (that would help new players as well).

Additionally, making collateral damage a special ability (I'd call it "Flechette Ordnance" or "Flechette Guns", as a small homage to the Flechette Defence System, plus real flechette ammunition does collateral damage) allows you to restrict the range II spec ab - since you can only get two, you have to choose between range I + collateral and range I + II, because the ability to do collateral damage to an adjacent square (range I + collateral) is very good already, having it over two squares makes a properly upgraded artillery unit almost equivalent to a bunker for weakening enemies.

Plus, collateral damage is a much "flashier" special ability than base bombardment and could be opened up for other units as well (cruisers, aircraft and perhaps flamethrowers?) - and you could tie barrage-like promos to it, as follow-up.

Anyway, even if you don't want to go with that, I think that the "accuracy" spec ab should be renamed to "siege mortar" or something along these lines to make clear what it's used for.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I made a strange observation in my current game (started under 11d), continued under e) and f)) regarding Deidre and her civic choices. She was one of two factions choosing the green path (Morgan the second - he temporarily ended up with +8 Planet, likely because of starting near the Pholus Rigde and then playing accordingly) and while Morgan stayed in EB for the entire game, Deidre choosed Hybrid in 2249. 26 Years later (2275), she changed to EB. Another 26 Years passed and she switched again to Hybrid. That repeated in 2301, 2327 and - I already expected it here - in 2353. I have attached a save of the year 2253; Deidre's switch happens, when the turn is ended. If other saves are needed - I have saved all autosaves from the beginning on.