V24 initial observations

[jmmendesp]

So in summary the main goals are probably gonna be Viewports, Multi-Maps and fixing these weird volcano and AI artifacts. Personally, I am anticipating Viewports are gonna improve the mid to late game experience.

As someone from the "outside" who only very very recently started participating in these forums, I wonder if the team realizes how amazing their work is. The game gets more amazing with every update. At this rate I'll never play Civ 5

The amount, and quality, of stuff that already made it into the mod is mind blogging. Now viewports and multimaps may revolutionize and revitalize Civ 4 modding...2 years after the game's sequel was launched! Amazing.

Thank you so much.

If there's anything a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy can do to help, seriously tell me.

 

[draz]

Civ 5? Pfft, it doesn't deserve to even be mentioned in the same sentence as C2C.

 

[rightfuture]

Civ 6 does!

 

[Vokarya]

Civ 5? Pfft, it doesn't deserve to even be mentioned in the same sentence as C2C.

Civ 5's level of disappointment for me was one of the reasons I went back to Civ 4. Then I got AND, and then just kind of took off from there.

 

[jmmendesp]

Well, I didn't want to derail the thread Let's go back to v24 discussion

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also, as has been said before, the 50000 BC start needs to be rethought. I reached Ancient Era in 7000 BC

I don't think it's the start DATE that needs to be adjusted (if anything to go back as far as the tech tree does we haven't even begun to approach the point it should be at imo) but the gradation of turn times that would need adjusting. This is pretty commonly one of the most difficult things to get right in the mod as its constantly changing so many variables.

If there's anything a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy can do to help, seriously tell me.

There is a big need for someone to go through and spreadsheet everything in the game by section. Creating a list of all units with some of their highlights, for example, or all buildings, etc... this stuff was something I tried to do once but found it was getting in the way of modding progress too much to keep up with. For a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy, such a task would be optimal if you've got excel and patience.

 

[jmmendesp]

I don't think it's the start DATE that needs to be adjusted (if anything to go back as far as the tech tree does we haven't even begun to approach the point it should be at imo) but the gradation of turn times that would need adjusting. This is pretty commonly one of the most difficult things to get right in the mod as its constantly changing so many variables.

Yes, when I said 50000 BC start, I really meant the whole turns-to-years mechanic

There is a big need for someone to go through and spreadsheet everything in the game by section. Creating a list of all units with some of their highlights, for example, or all buildings, etc... this stuff was something I tried to do once but found it was getting in the way of modding progress too much to keep up with. For a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy, such a task would be optimal if you've got excel and patience.

Wow, love to hear you say that, I've spent more time than I like to admit messing around in Excel. Please give me more details of what's needed, and I'll get to work right away.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well, what would be optimal is if spreadsheets were made of each kind of game element and their abilities/bonuses/penalties. Categories I'm most interested in seeing mapped out include:
Combat Classes
Promotions
Units
Buildings
(techs are probably fairly well mapped out already)

So for example, say on the promotions, list all promos down column a and then start adding the various traits/bonuses etc... (aka 'tags' in xml speak though you could derive them in explanatory form in the pedia) as headers along the top row, then fill in the abilities of the promos accordingly.

[U]Promotion | Technology Prerequisites | Prerequisite Promotion | Movement Modifiers | Combat Modifiers | etc...[/U]
Combat I  | None                     | None                   | None               | +10%                    | etc...

and onward...

 

[jmmendesp]

Well, what would be optimal is if spreadsheets were made of each kind of game element and their abilities/bonuses/penalties. Categories I'm most interested in seeing mapped out include:
Combat Classes
Promotions
Units
Buildings
(techs are probably fairly well mapped out already)

Gotcha! Just one question. What do you mean by combat classes? The stuff that's listed as "Unit Categories" in the pedia (doomsday units, mounted units, etc.)?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well, what would be optimal is if spreadsheets were made of each kind of game element and their abilities/bonuses/penalties. Categories I'm most interested in seeing mapped out include:
Combat Classes
Promotions
Units
Buildings
(techs are probably fairly well mapped out already)

So for example, say on the promotions, list all promos down column a and then start adding the various traits/bonuses etc... (aka 'tags' in xml speak though you could derive them in explanatory form in the pedia) as headers along the top row, then fill in the abilities of the promos accordingly.

[U]Promotion | Technology Prerequisites | Prerequisite Promotion | Movement Modifiers | Combat Modifiers | etc...[/U]
Combat I  | None                     | None                   | None               | +10%                    | etc...

and onward...

Can't you get the basics of this using the utility Koshling made? Linked to in the modders documentation first post as here

 

[Thunderbrd]

Unfortunately, it really just ends up revealing just how complex the xml really is... I found it next to impossible to derive much of real value there, especially with the WoC methods in place. And so many conditional settings threw it for a loop too. I did not want to further distract Koshling from actually modding to get it to a point it would be truly useful. Additionally, I found that there are so many tags that my attempts to effectively/efficiently database them with Access proved impossible as there are limits to what that program can juggle and we exceed those limits in spades.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

As someone from the "outside" who only very very recently started participating in these forums, I wonder if the team realizes how amazing their work is. The game gets more amazing with every update. At this rate I'll never play Civ 5

The amount, and quality, of stuff that already made it into the mod is mind blogging. Now viewports and multimaps may revolutionize and revitalize Civ 4 modding...2 years after the game's sequel was launched! Amazing.

Thank you so much.

If there's anything a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy can do to help, seriously tell me.

If you want to help out and your not a programmer pm ( private message ) right future

 

[Thunderbrd]

Gotcha! Just one question. What do you mean by combat classes? The stuff that's listed as "Unit Categories" in the pedia (doomsday units, mounted units, etc.)?

Yes... exactly. If you're willing to endeavor to learn to read the XML info files with any ol' text editor, you can get the full list from the combatclassinfos xml document located in the generic xml file of the mod (through assets). You can also see there all the tags and data those tags hold but what I'm more interested in is listing the actual effects as the tags can be less than fully explanatory. Eventually, the excell files can be improved and updated to also include each tag AND under that row an explanation of the tag as seen in the pedia, but more important, I think, would be to just get the information in at least initially. There are so many tags it tends to overwhelm excel as well if all are included.

 

[jmmendesp]

Yes... exactly. If you're willing to endeavor to learn to read the XML info files with any ol' text editor, you can get the full list from the combatclassinfos xml document located in the generic xml file of the mod (through assets). You can also see there all the tags and data those tags hold but what I'm more interested in is listing the actual effects as the tags can be less than fully explanatory. Eventually, the excell files can be improved and updated to also include each tag AND under that row an explanation of the tag as seen in the pedia, but more important, I think, would be to just get the information in at least initially. There are so many tags it tends to overwhelm excel as well if all are included.

Yeah, using the XML files is certainly much more practical

I'll start whipping something together

EDIT - Going to be using this for the XML reading: http://www.firstobject.com/dn_editor.htm

 

[Thunderbrd]

Cool! DH does make a good point as to one method you could use to at least establish some information in a spreadsheet to get a starting point. I've been thinking about that since he mentioned it and I would tend to agree that at least for a way to get started, you could find it helpful. You might want to look into it anyhow by following that link.

 

[jmmendesp]

Cool! DH does make a good point as to one method you could use to at least establish some information in a spreadsheet to get a starting point. I've been thinking about that since he mentioned it and I would tend to agree that at least for a way to get started, you could find it helpful. You might want to look into it anyhow by following that link.

Loving his app!

 

[rightfuture]

As someone from the "outside" who only very very recently started participating in these forums, I wonder if the team realizes how amazing their work is. The game gets more amazing with every update. At this rate I'll never play Civ 5

The amount, and quality, of stuff that already made it into the mod is mind blogging. Now viewports and multimaps may revolutionize and revitalize Civ 4 modding...2 years after the game's sequel was launched! Amazing.

Thank you so much.

If there's anything a non-programmer, non-modder, python-illiterate guy can do to help, seriously tell me.

If you want to help out and your not a programmer pm ( private message ) rightfuture

Absolutely jmmendesp, Welcome to C2C!
I am glad to help out and find a place for you, and anyone else who wants to help make C2C better.

From contributing to the discussions, to playtesting new versions, to posting saves if you encounter a bug( in the right thread), to helping spread the word about C2C in other forums, and even helping me organize ideas, there are lot's of things you can do to help.
Please browse through the different project threads, and discover what you like and dislike.

I will pm you very soon, and it would be great to talk and help you.
Anyone else feel the same! Feel free to pm (private message) me.
Spread the word about C2C!
It deserves to be noticed as the best mod ever!

 

[jmmendesp]

Can't you get the basics of this using the utility Koshling made? Linked to in the modders documentation first post as here

Well, I'm getting more than the basics, really. Pretty much anything that is in a xml tag I can turn into Excel columns Did you know that the Bombard Mammoth is currently the only implemented unit that has a strength of 23??

App is a life saver.

Now, I have to:

- Find out what some of the more obscure tags actually mean.

EDIT: Well that part was easy

http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4UnitInfos

- Find out if they're worth putting in the spreadsheet.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Pretty much any tag would be worth putting in the spreadsheet I think. (except perhaps some of the internal processing stuff like art tags and such...) It could also reveal underused options we may have. And doing the research to determine WHAT those tags do and using a line under the tag name to give it the name it tends to use in the pedia, as well as another line to offer some written definition, is a HUGE help. You'll run up against a number of newer tags added by Rise of Man, A New Dawn, RevDCM, and possibly more mods this one is built on. Collecting definitions from all those sources would be invaluable to us all I think.

This will also help us in that when we add tags we can update these files and keep them posted with updates in the Modder Documentation section. I'd think we'd all appreciate that endlessly.

 

[jmmendesp]

Pretty much any tag would be worth putting in the spreadsheet I think. (except perhaps some of the internal processing stuff like art tags and such...) It could also reveal underused options we may have. And doing the research to determine WHAT those tags do and using a line under the tag name to give it the name it tends to use in the pedia, as well as another line to offer some written definition, is a HUGE help. You'll run up against a number of newer tags added by Rise of Man, A New Dawn, RevDCM, and possibly more mods this one is built on. Collecting definitions from all those sources would be invaluable to us all I think.

This will also help us in that when we add tags we can update these files and keep them posted with updates in the Modder Documentation section. I'd think we'd all appreciate that endlessly.

Alright, I'll start with the original Civ IV tags, as I already know which of those we need and which we don't, then I'll tackle the rest. Thanks to what you guys provided, this is gonna be SO much easier than I thought it was gonna be (at least that's my current impression).