Vaccinating children - choice by parent or state?

[Loppan Torkel]

..outbreak of measles in Disneyland and people1 are upset that people2 aren't having their children properly vaccinated.

Since the children can't decide this - should it be a parent or a state decision? A state decision would involve some form of punishment should you not vaccinate your child properly.

 

[bhavv]

Needs to be a state decision, and parents who refuse need to have their kids taken away.

 

[classical_hero]

I have no idea how the anti vaccination people got started and now we are seeing the side effects of their hysteria. I believe we should be going after these people and when people start dying we should charge them with murder because their actions caused these deaths.

 

[Tahuti]

It should be somewhere between parent and public decision. If they choose their child to be non-vaccinated, let them be, unless a vaccinated child catches a disease he had been vaccinated against (which can happen if he is contact with non-vaccinated people for certain diseases) then the parents of the child should be blamed.

Frankly, common law jurisdictions are better able to deal with this than civil law ones.

 

[dutchfire]

Maybe more for the Daily Graphs and Charts, but whatever, here is the Dutch bible belt:

Red and grey dots show outbreaks of measles. Blue color shows vaccination grade (darker = less).

 

[Samez]

As proper vaccination can erase diseases or lower their outbreak to an absolute minimum it should be state/WHO decision.
I am also not a fan of those parents who instead of vaccinating their kids send them to chickenpox "parties" where they can infect and afterwards live through the disease "naturally".

 

[Windsor]

Raising kids is first and foremost the parents responsibility, but society as a whole has a responsibility to help and to make sure that the parents are able and willing to their job.

By refusing to get the kids vaccinated you are demonstrating that you're not capable of fully doing your job as a parent. It would be like letting a 5 year old freely walk around in a large city. So yes, if you don't do your job then the state needs to step in and help.

Any obligatory vaccines should of course be paid for by the state.

I have no idea how the anti vaccination people got started and now we are seeing the side effects of their hysteria. I believe we should be going after these people and when people start dying we should charge them with murder because their actions caused these deaths.

Before vaccines where available everyone saw how terrible the diseases where so when a vaccine comes all the parents of course wants their kids vaccinated. As the number of outbreaks drops because of vaccines you get a new generation of parents who have never seen the disease and they end up being more afraid of the vaccine than the disease. Also add in a really failed view on what "question authority" means.

 

[nc-1701]

I always feel a little odd discussing this.

According to my parents I had a very bad reaction to my first round of vaccines, so they chose not to get me any of my follow up vaccines. As an adult I have some allergies/autoimmune issues so my personal view is that it is entirely plausible that I reacted badly to the vaccine in a way an ordinary person would not have. The other argument that my vaccine caused my other problems is imo totally ridiculous.
I had chicken pox as a kid, it wasn't bad at all just like poison ivy or whatever and my understanding is that the immunity is stronger this way. I also got whooping cough when I was around 11-12, which was pretty terrible, but again I survived and the long term consequences haven't been bad.

So we're left with the perspective that in general vaccines are important from a herd immunity perspective. But I feel like a lot of the backlash against anti-vaxxers feels like it demonizes people like me who may actually have a reason not to be vaccinated. The notion that nobody could possibly be allergic to anything in a vaccine is about as preposterous as the claim they cause autism or that they are bad for everyone.

Politicization of issues which are strictly health/scientific in nature is bad for everyone, and has mostly been caused by anti-vaxxers.

 

[Tahuti]

I am also not a fan of those parents who instead of vaccinating their kids send them to chickenpox "parties" where they can infect and afterwards live through the disease "naturally".

I'm intending to do exactly that. I was vaccinated against chickenpox but still ended up getting it in my 20s. At an adult age, getting chickenpox is potentially dangerous, so it is best catched at a young age, especially since the vaccine is hardly airtight.

 

[bhavv]

Chicken Pox and Measles are two very different things though. The first is harmless, the second can kill.

I wasn't even aware of chicken pox vaccinations.

 

[Tahuti]

Chicken Pox and Measles are two very different things though. The first is harmless, the second can kill.

Yeah, one shouldn't turn down a Measles vaccination for your one's own sake. The vaccine works pretty well too.

I wasn't even aware of chicken pox vaccinations.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose. I have little sympathy for the anti-vac crowd, but chickenpox vacs genuinely suck.

 

[Samez]

You are right about the health risks when infected as an adult.
I would still go for vaccination as the lack of immunization as adult is still possible even though you had an infection as a kid if it didn't turn out to be strong enough.
It is also possible to get a seriously annoying herpes zoster later in life when you had a chickenpox infection before.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So...people who are not infected are blaming people who didn't get vaccinated for this outbreak of disease...which is presumably only infecting people who did not get vaccinated. Other than an opportunity to be self righteous, what exactly is the reason people who are not infected are even involved here?

 

[Zelig]

Parents' choice - they're always free to leave the country if they don't like it.

 

[uppi]

So we're left with the perspective that in general vaccines are important from a herd immunity perspective. But I feel like a lot of the backlash against anti-vaxxers feels like it demonizes people like me who may actually have a reason not to be vaccinated. The notion that nobody could possibly be allergic to anything in a vaccine is about as preposterous as the claim they cause autism or that they are bad for everyone.

People like you are the very reason anti-vaxxers are heavily criticized. There will always be a minority that react badly to vaccines. Usually, they are protected by herd immunity. But if people refuse to vaccinate for no reason at all, they are endangering those people.

If just the people who refused to be vaccinated for no reason were at risk, it would just be evolutionary pressure against stupidity. The existence of people who have a valid reason is the problem of the anti-vaxxer campaigns.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

People like you are the very reason anti-vaxxers are heavily criticized. There will always be a minority that react badly to vaccines. Usually, they are protected by herd immunity. But if people refuse to vaccinate for no reason at all, they are endangering those people.

If just the people who refused to be vaccinated for no reason were at risk, it would just be evolutionary pressure against stupidity. The existence of people who have a valid reason is the problem of the anti-vaxxer campaigns.

Ah. So someone who is allergic to a vaccine has a valid concern, and it is just everyone else that is just seizing an opportunity to be self righteous. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[uppi]

Ah. So someone who is allergic to a vaccine has a valid concern, and it is just everyone else that is just seizing an opportunity to be self righteous. Thanks for clarifying.

There are other valid concerns, but essentially, that's it.

 

[Borachio]

It's the duty and responsibility of the state (as guardian of its citizens' best interests) to sufficiently educate and inform the parents that they recognize the necessity of vaccinating their children in order to gain the necessary herd immunity to protect them from common infectious diseases which can otherwise be fatal or cause serious damage to health.

They only need convince 75% (is it?) of the parents to do this. The few cranks, who for religious or other reasons decline to get their children vaccinated, shouldn't matter here nor there.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It's the duty and responsibility of the state (as guardian of its citizens' best interests) to sufficiently educate and inform the parents that they recognize the necessity of vaccinating their children in order to gain the necessary herd immunity to protect them from common infectious diseases which can otherwise be fatal or cause serious damage to health.

They only need convince 75% (is it?) of the parents to do this. The few cranks, who for religious or other reasons decline to get their children vaccinated, shouldn't matter here nor there.

You could make some really nasty substitutions into this line of reasoning.

"It's the duty and responsibility of the state (as guardian of its citizens best interests) to sufficiently educate and inform the parents that they recognize the necessity of inculcating in their children the glorification of the state, in order to produce the necessary herd mentality to protect the state from individuality which can otherwise be fatal or cause serious damage to the state."

 

[Borachio]

You could do that, yes.

Whether it's a valid thing to do is another matter.

Anyway, I only typed a sentence out as it occurred to me. I don't claim it's true.