[NFP] Vampires useless past Nationalism?

[AriochIV]

I've only played a few partial games with the Sanguine Pact, but it seems that though Vampire strength scales with technology changes, Vampires fall way behind once you unlock Nationalism and the ability to create Corps. Since they can't be permanently killed, they still can be useful to an extent, but as technology improves they fall farther and farther behind, to the point where they can be one-shot by city defenses. And once you unlock Armies, Vampires are downright useless as combat units.

I guess it makes some sense that individual vampires can't take down large groups of modern troops... but since the early game goes by very quickly, and since you may not get your first Vampire until pretty far into the game if you're unlucky with barbarian camps, Vampires have an awfully short window of relevance.

 

[Kwami]

Have you tried killing more units near vampires? If the vampire has something like +30 from kills, then who cares if he's not in a corp?

 

[Timothy001]

A vampire in a castle or Capital can be killed. If he's there, and loses all health, he dies.

 

[LoneRebel]

Guess that's deliberate. I had trouble with Mongolian Vampires with several kills (my own units and barbarians) + Oligarchy, in the early game. I don't think Vampires are supposed to be complete game breakers (and they still can be if they get lots of kills).

 

[CoconutTank]

I haven't used Vamps in awhile, but I thought their melee strength gets updated with corps and armies too? If they only update to the largest single unit's melee strength, they can effectively become corps with 10 kills or armies with 17 kills (max 10 barb kills).

 

[bonfireg]

I've only played a few partial games with the Sanguine Pact, but it seems that though Vampire strength scales with technology changes, Vampires fall way behind once you unlock Nationalism and the ability to create Corps. Since they can't be permanently killed, they still can be useful to an extent, but as technology improves they fall farther and farther behind, to the point where they can be one-shot by city defenses. And once you unlock Armies, Vampires are downright useless as combat units.

I guess it makes some sense that individual vampires can't take down large groups of modern troops... but since the early game goes by very quickly, and since you may not get your first Vampire until pretty far into the game if you're unlucky with barbarian camps, Vampires have an awfully short window of relevance.

Your vampires will have their base melee strength set to whatever your greatest land or naval melee or cavalry unit is (I think it's not based on recon or ranged units), but that also includes corps and armies. I just finished a game and my original vampire had +4 from barbarians dying near it and +21 from units dying near it, I had tank armies so their base damage was 97 + 25 = 122, plus a great general and oligarchic legacy, fascist legacy and wars of religion, so that's 122 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 4 = 140. This unit would decisively kill artillery armies and could besiege cities by itself, so it was pretty useful.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Your vampires will have their base melee strength set to whatever your greatest land or naval melee or cavalry unit is (I think it's not based on recon or ranged units), but that also includes corps and armies.

From the pedia:

Has base Combat Strength equal to the strongest unit your cities have produced.

Although Anton specifically said Melee units in a livestream and the table column that defines this ability is UseMaxMeleeTrainedStrength, from various testing it appears that the Vamp's base strength is adjusted conditionally off the value in the Combat column in the Units table, regardless of Class tag or PromotionClass. It is also a stipulation that the unit must be hard built, so corps, armies, etc. that are formed will not count.

 

[Kibikus]

It is also a stipulation that the unit must be hard built, so corps, armies, etc. that are formed will not count.

I haven't tested it myself, but in a Potato McWhiskey video I watched earlier his vampire got a base combat strength of 72 right after he got a Cavalry corps. Now, I'm not sure if he combined two normal Cavs or if he built it in a city with a Military Academy.

As I understand it, Vampire strength is calculated basically the same way as city combat strength, without the -10.

 

[AriochIV]

I re-checked my abandoned Hungarian Vampire save, and I do see that they have the same strength as my Pike and Shot corps (65). I hadn't noticed; I had checked after I formed my first Huszar corps, and the strength was still 55; I forgot that the unit has to be of the Melee promotion class.

edit: the 65 strength could also be coming from the strength of an uncombined Huszar.

 

[EmJayLambert]

It's the Melee strength of the strongest Land or Naval Unit that you have built excluding GDRs. Not just melee units.
So if you build a Corps or Army it takes their strength but if you combine two or three then it won't work.
And yes they can continue to be very powerful into the late game with the obvious caveats of being quite slow both to move and to heal.

 

[Pietato]

You have to build the corps. or army. And sometimes it takes a turn to update.

It's the Melee strength of the strongest Land or Naval Unit that you have built excluding GDRs. Not just melee units.
So if you build a Corps or Army it takes their strength but if you combine two or three then it won't work.
And yes they can continue to be very powerful into the late game with the obvious caveats of being quite slow both to move and to heal.

If you upgrade singular units though, it counts.

 

[AriochIV]

It's the Melee strength of the strongest Land or Naval Unit that you have built excluding GDRs. Not just melee units.
So if you build a Corps or Army it takes their strength but if you combine two or three then it won't work.

If so, that's really dumb.

A vampire in a castle or Capital can be killed. If he's there, and loses all health, he dies.

Not if the civilization has any other cities or castles. In my other game against Scottish vampires, I've "killed" his vampires repeated times in his capital and in castles, but they just jump to another castle or city. Even with all three of his castles pillaged, and with his vampires at 0 heath in his capital, they just jump to the new capital when the previous capital is captured. Scotland started the war with 3 vampires, and they still have 3 vampires with 0 health sitting in their last city.

 

[EmJayLambert]

An interesting(?) point... Free City troops don't count as Barbarians for the purposes of adding strength to a Vampire.

 

[HiRezAudio]

From the pedia:

Although Anton specifically said Melee units in a livestream and the table column that defines this ability is UseMaxMeleeTrainedStrength, from various testing it appears that the Vamp's base strength is adjusted conditionally off the value in the Combat column in the Units table, regardless of Class tag or PromotionClass. It is also a stipulation that the unit must be hard built, so corps, armies, etc. that are formed will not count.

The key word there is 'formed' - with the right encampment buildings you can hard-build armies & corps, and if you also have a Vampire Castle sited correctly in that city, you can produce these armies & corps in short time too.
Vampire Castle can really add production

 

[Pietato]

The key word there is 'formed' - with the right encampment buildings you can hard-build armies & corps, and if you also have a Vampire Castle sited correctly in that city, you can produce these armies & corps in short time too.
Vampire Castle can really add production

Vampire Castle bonuses go to your capital.

An interesting(?) point... Free City troops don't count as Barbarians for the purposes of adding strength to a Vampire.

Yeah, I noticed that when my vampire started sacking random cities half a map away. Must not be labelled as barbs.

 

[Equilin]

An interesting(?) point... Free City troops don't count as Barbarians for the purposes of adding strength to a Vampire.

I'm sure it's for every purpose. For example, Eagle Warriors can capture them but not barbs.

 

[Bibor]

What a title for a civ6 forum post

 

[Inhalaattori]

Vampires can actually hit even harder than GDRs in the late game if you have lots of bonus from kills. Their only weakness is slow movement speed. Movement speed can be buffed with great generals, but still they are pretty slow.

So nationalism is pretty irrelevant when it comes to Vampires - just build an army/armada. I would rather say that advanced flight and bombers make them less important.

 

[Kwami]

I'm sure it's for every purpose. For example, Eagle Warriors can capture them but not barbs.

But they don't give full XP after one promotion, like barbarians. They probably shouldn't count after 10 for vampires, either. That's just too cheesy.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

In my latest game, a couple of my Mongolian vampires were sitting at about 116 strength in the Atomic era. They are comically strong.