Vanilla Civilization Overhauls

[Heinage]

Yeah, the Feitoria will just be a coastal improvement.
That building next to the trading post will have something to do with trade, hence it's proximity to the trading post. In fact it looks like it's sharing the same tile.
I'm guessing that this a new improvement called the "Fortified Trading Post" which you can build along trade routes/roads which provide a safe haven for your caravans to shelter when being threatened by barbarians/enemies.

EDIT: oh and for something on topic. Yes, like mentioned above and as evidenced in my signature, I am still holding out for changes to the Arabs and Dutch with relation to the new trade route mechanic!

EDIT 2: Oh, and just now saw the Morocco hint. Ok, that building next to the trading post is the Moroccan UI

 

[Louis XXIV]

They don't really look anything alike.

Thanks.

The Riad is a good argument, though. At least, I don't see anything indicating changing an old civ.

 

[meowschwitz]

Germany seems likely with The Zulu taking a very similar UA. France getting redesigned to support new gameplay systems also lends credence to completely overhauling their Uniques. I borrowed someone's ideas here but I forgot whose.
UA: Military-Industrial Complex: Every military building adds +1 production, +15% unit strength and unit production when at war with multiple civilizations.

India has seen the added value of it's UA diminish since Vanilla. They should keep the idea of Population growth but make it more straightforward. Or they could add in a faith aspect since it's the birth of multiple religions.
UA: Holy Waters: Cities founded on a river produce +1 faith and grow 20% faster

The Byzantine Empire is honestly very strong currently albeit unreliable. However there will be a revamped piety tree that will add a similar ability which means it could change.
UA: Patriarchate of Constantinople: Choose one more Belief than normal when you found a Religion. Pantheon costs don't increase if another religion is founded.

The Celts are guaranteed a pantheon, but ends up being insignificant later in the game. The only change they need is the ability to build improvements on the forests later in the game.

Arabia doesn't need a change, but a renaming or retooling makes sense since it's called "Trade Caravans".
UA: Trade Caravans: Land Caravans have double range, Oil resources provide double quantity.

The Netherlands seem like they should be getting an upgrade with the new Trade route system
UA: Dutch East India Company: Retains 50% of the Happiness benefits from a Luxury Resource if your last copy of it is traded away. Cargo Ships have tripled defense.

Depending on who else gets added, we could see other Civilization changes.
The Moors/Morocco/Berbers could affect The Ottomans
Holy Roman Empire could affect Germany further by taking the Landschneckt and/or UA

Their could be other small changes as well kinda like how England recieved an added spy with Gods and Kings

America could get a tourism bonus or extra World Congress abilities
Songhai could use a boost overall but I'm unsure of what to do with them.

 

[ferretbacon]

Germany seems likely with The Zulu taking a very similar UA. France getting redesigned to support new gameplay systems also lends credence to completely overhauling their Uniques. I borrowed someone's ideas here but I forgot whose.
UA: Military-Industrial Complex: Every military building adds +1 production, +15% unit strength and unit production when at war with multiple civilizations.

India has seen the added value of it's UA diminish since Vanilla. They should keep the idea of Population growth but make it more straightforward. Or they could add in a faith aspect since it's the birth of multiple religions.
UA: Holy Waters: Cities founded on a river produce +1 faith and grow 20% faster

Those would be mine.

Never named the German one and had no unit production bonus (although that's a good addition), and I had India as Sacred Rivers, with only a 10% growth bonus.

 

[meowschwitz]

Those would be mine.

Never named the German one, and I had India as Sacred Rivers, with only a 10% growth bonus.

Sweet, I really liked them and posted them on a similar reddit post but didn't remember who I stole it from. Those are great. The Germany one is particularly awesome

 

[ScottMcPwn]

as an Irishman, i assure you we did far to more to hinder the British empire than to help, with the exception of Ulster from the Plantations onwards.

England is fine, and it should be England as a Civ, not Britain. Germany and India, among others, are begging for overhauls and need it much more than England

I did say partly Irish, reffering to the Northerners in which the majority consider themself British.

 

[ScottMcPwn]

Longbows are more famous and interesting than Redcoats and they add diversity of time period (as opposed to two units from the same time period). In addition, British Redcoats had a very small window of the more powerful land army (a time period where they actually lost in North America). Generally speaking, both the French and Prussian armies were more significant than the British Redcoats. In addition, there are Minute Men, Janissaries, Musketeers, and Tercios as Musketmen replacements. Hell, the Carolean should be a Musket replacement but there were too many so a matchlock musket wielding unit from the 17th century is a rifleman replacement. On top of that, you want to add the redcoat?

Longbows are strongly associated with the English and their victory at Agincourt and are an interesting unit to play. They have a very different ability (range three is quite good) and they come at a slot where there's only one other unit.

The English are the dominant culture group among the British and they're the only one that doesn't run into difficulty with overlapping with the Celts. Wales, Scotland, and Ireland (all part of the British Isles and the British Empire) make up of the bulk of the Celtic cities and units. A non-English "Briton" from Colchester is their leader. On top of this, I can think of no good reason to make a change from England to Britain.

Overall, it is an unnecessary and bad change to make.

---

Anyway, there's a strong argument for Germany, as discussed in another thread. I still feel Songhai should be changed. I wouldn't mind tweaks to either the Arabs or the Dutch. There's less pressing need, though.

I don't want to go off topic at all here but..........
French and Prussian armies are more signifficant?
If it wasn't for the British Redcoats at Waterloo, the Prussians would have ultimately failed.
The fairly small army in America was faced up against an entire French army as well as Americans while Britain itself was at the verge of being invaded by the French.
Redcoats are far more linked to the British Empire, without them there would be no British Empire.
Theres far more cases I can mention, Rorkes Drift, Camden, Bunker Hill and I can go on.
I do not wish to mention this any further.

 

[Arachnofiend]

Funny, ask a German about Waterloo and they'll tell you the opposite.

The Prussians basically dominated land warfare up until Germany was defeated in WWI. Louis' argument about there being far too many musket replacements is a strong one too, the Longbowmen is ultimately a more interesting unit for gameplay reasons than the Redcoat could be.

 

[les berceaux]

1. I am thrilled they are implementing more Unique Improvements. UIs are definitely the most underserved option for Civs.

2. I hope they overhaul Vanilla/G&K civs where necessary, but I personally would be fine if they released those changes in a patch after BNW comes out. There's no reason for them to add more work to an already full plate ahead of the BNW launch.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't want to go off topic at all here but..........
French and Prussian armies are more signifficant?
If it wasn't for the British Redcoats at Waterloo, the Prussians would have ultimately failed.

There is more to British history than 1815. I believe I said "except for a brief moment." The land armies of Louis XIV and Napoleon were both more significant than the British army even if you are correct about the army of Louis XVI being less significant. Frederick the Great shouldn't even need more words than his name to explain his importance to continental armies and land power.

Redcoats are far more linked to the British Empire, without them there would be no British Empire.

While I agree that infantry soldiers are important for empire, it was the British navy that was essential for the British Empire.

 

[j51]

Depending on who else gets added, we could see other Civilization changes.
...
Holy Roman Empire could affect Germany further by taking the Landschneckt and/or UA

Wait, where have they hinted about the HRE? Oh no...

 

[turingmachine]

UA: Holy Waters: Cities founded on a river produce +1 faith and grow 20% faster

The Celts are guaranteed a pantheon, but ends up being insignificant later in the game. The only change they need is the ability to build improvements on the forests later in the game.

Holy Waters is just the Celts UA that you want to transfer to India, but oh wait it's with rivers. It's the same mechanic of settle next to a terrain type get +1 faith from turn one, which would have the same effect in the game of getting an early pantheon.

 

[ferretbacon]

Holy Waters is just the Celts UA that you want to transfer to India, but oh wait it's with rivers. It's the same mechanic of settle next to a terrain type get +1 faith from turn one, which would have the same effect in the game of getting an early pantheon.

Yeah, except the Celts can potentially get +3 faith per city, whereas India would be limited to one. India would also benefit from that nifty growth bonus, so, really, they're not that much alike.

Besides which, the Celts need to be modified anyway; a + bonus is more appropriate for India, and they probably would have gotten something like that had religion been shipped with Vanilla. Alternatively, when I think "Celt," the first word that pops into my head via association is "culture."

Celtic Culture. Obviously the devs made a similar association with the Ceilidh Hall. The Celts really ought to have culture bonuses, not faith. I'd actually suggest the Aztec's current culture for kills UA... speaking of which, the Aztecs also would have gotten a faith for kills UA if religion had shipped with Vanilla.

That's what's bugging me with the way Civ V is being done with these new UAs... Firaxis is generally unwilling to modify older civilizations to have more appropriate UAs when new mechanics are introduced, and instead tack them onto new civs with little regard to appropriateness in order to have the new mechanics used.

The Celt-Aztec-India thing is one example. Another is what is going to happen to the Dutch/Portuguese. The Dutch, by all rights, ought to be getting some bonus to naval trade routes. And while the Portuguese are famed for their naval trade, I'd argue they're even more famous for their naval exploration. But because Firaxis wants to showcase the new trade system, Portugal is getting a heavy trade focus and the Dutch are probably getting nothing (hopefully I'm wrong).

Anyway, /rant.

 

[Seek]

That's what's bugging me with the way Civ V is being done with these new UAs... Firaxis is generally unwilling to modify older civilizations to have more appropriate UAs when new mechanics are introduced, and instead tack them onto new civs with little regard to appropriateness in order to have the new mechanics used.

I hear you, but can you imagine the QA/Balance testing it would require to modify all the old civs each expansion? It would increase production cost and time significantly. I think they have enough on their plate with the new features, mechanics and civs. Firaxis, bless their hearts, aren't exactly known for well-balanced and bug-free games on release.

 

[Tsar NicholasII]

I don't want to go off topic at all here but..........
French and Prussian armies are more signifficant?
If it wasn't for the British Redcoats at Waterloo, the Prussians would have ultimately failed.
The fairly small army in America was faced up against an entire French army as well as Americans while Britain itself was at the verge of being invaded by the French.
Redcoats are far more linked to the British Empire, without them there would be no British Empire.
Theres far more cases I can mention, Rorkes Drift, Camden, Bunker Hill and I can go on.
I do not wish to mention this any further.

Without the Prussians at Waterloo, the British would have failed, plus the redcoats weren't known for their skill in battle like the French and Prussian armies were.

Redcoat is also a very broad term to use as there was never a regiment or military unit called a "redcoat" in the British army and could encompass anything from Musketmen to WWI infantry

 

[Calouste]

I hear you, but can you imagine the QA/Balance testing it would require to modify all the old civs each expansion? It would increase production cost and time significantly. I think they have enough on their plate with the new features, mechanics and civs. Firaxis, bless their hearts, aren't exactly known for well-balanced and bug-free games on release.

Well, France got a major overhaul, so there might be others. Germany is a possibility now that the Zulu got a rather similar UA.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Germany already discussed. I expect Arabia to have some changes as they seem to interfere with the new trading system a lot, including their ability name.

Aztec could have some changes with the new culture system. Or not - their culture gain is nit as straightforward as French.

Ottomans may get some changes, because their ability could easily do something with sea trade routes and because they need some boost.

America could be changed because they are not very strong now and because their role in XX century history could be reflected in some ideology-based ability. The latter is actual for Germany, Russia and, probably, England.

There are more civs requiring some boost, but they aren't tied to any BNW features, so unlikely.

 

[blackcatatonic]

To be honest, the only Civs I really feel need a major tweak are Spain and Byzantium, neither of which are vanilla, so I'm not sure if they ought to be discussed here. Arabia and Germany are both very likely to get some kind of change, although I wouldn't have said that either needed one before BNW was announced.

As for England...

roguesaw: actually, the reason why the English nobility stopped speaking French and turned to English was because England lost the Hundred Years War... If the longbows were more succesful, same English kings would have ruled France and continue speaking French.

I'll put the history stuff in spoiler tags so it can easily be avoided:

Spoiler :

Actually, English kings began to speak English well before the end of the Hundred Years' War (in fact, under Henry V, government documents were written in English) and continued to speak French as well as English for a good while - and the English didn't completely give up on France until Elizabeth's time. I take your second point though. Longbows were never going to be effective in the open field without extensive support - the battlefield at Agincourt greatly favoured the English. Although I think the successes - and eventual failure - of the English war effort had a lot more to do with the political situation in both England and France, especially the latter, and the improvement of the French army under Charles VII - than the limitations of the longbow.

My feelings regarding the Longbowman are pretty much the same as Louis XXIV's. The Longbowman represents a period in English military history where they had this iconic unit that was devastating in large numbers and, especially after Agincourt, was genuinely feared by the enemy. In CiV, the Longbowman gives the English a unique advantage at that point in the game - although to be honest, complaints that he's a bit OP are in part negated by his lack of Indirect Fire, which usually means you have to bring him in close if there's any kind of rough terrain in the way. And frankly there aren't enough European medieval UUs... we have the Landsknecht, the Berserker and that's about it, whereas I can think of several other Musketman replacement UUs besides the Redcoat. You could also argue, since the Longbow was supposed to have originally been developed in Wales, that it actually represents an early suggestion of 'Britishness' (although I have no problems with the English Civ continuing as is and have no real desire to see a British Civ any time soon - but then I would say that, being English )

One change I might make: I think England could stand to lose the extra spy and it could perhaps be given to Russia (come on, Russia with no espionage bonus? Have the devs seen Bond films? ), and perhaps be replaced with a bonus relating specifically to Diplomats.

 

[anandus]

Not really an overhaul, to the contrary, but I wonder if Byzantium will be able to pick a reformation belief as the extra belief (like they can pick an enhancer belief as extra belief in G&K)

 

[blackcatatonic]

Byzantium and Spain both need something. I think I would nerf Spain's NW discovery gold bonus a bit and instead give their Scout 3 movement points or something. Or a free Great Admiral on founding their first coastal city.

For Byzantium... reduced Faith cost for something would make sense, either Pantheons or Great Prophets.