Vanilla Civilization Overhauls

[JFD]

I never wish to play as Spain, because I don't like to take the chance that I might wind up without much use for their UA, and then I'm forced to play aggressively or without using their attributes at all. It and the Ottoman trait are the only UAs that really put me off civs that I would otherwise play as.

 

[LordProtector]

Religious Art: Each point of faith generated in a city increases its defence strength by 1 and its tourism out put by x. Can buy great artists with faith from the start of the game.

x is clearly there for balance. But the concept I think is pretty simple. Also, note that Byzantium don't need a religion, just faith. Having a religion might even be distracting for them as they buy prophets/missionaries/buildings with it instead of great works. The defence boost with faith seems like it might be fun to play with.

This is very nice, the faith:defence bonus is a great idea, but is that not a bit over powered one defence point for every one faith? You could end up with a Constantinople with a defence in the thousands. That would wind the Ottomans right up. Maybe every religious building and wonder adds defence? And a boost to faith wonders could fit in with that, I wouldn't mind being up against an AI with an almost guaranteed Hagia Sofia, all the more fun for capturing their capital.

 

[Sam Kwon]

I still don't see why it's a nerf. Especially since Korea is one of the few civs who don't need Great Scientists to do really well in science, it seems that lack of Academies from every Civ would benefit Korea more than usual. I guess I'm really not following your train of thought here.

I get that you want Turtles to enter Ocean tiles. However, I don't think you can approach this by arguing that Korea is weaker now than it was before.

Well my thoughts were since the great artists were going to be used for great works now more than for academy improvements the advantage Korea has which is the plus 2 for academies would be dampened. I didn't really think about the correlations with other civs...anyways still keeping my fingers crossed for ocean hexes

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Errr.
1. Great Artists provdie Landmark (obselete now with BNW)
2. Great Scientists provide Academy
3. Great Generals provide Citadel
4. Great Merchants provide Customs House
5. Great Engineers provide Manufactory
6. Great Prophets provide Holy Site.

Since when did Artists provide Academies?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well my thoughts were since the great artists were going to be used for great works now more than for academy improvements the advantage Korea has which is the plus 2 for academies would be dampened. I didn't really think about the correlations with other civs...anyways still keeping my fingers crossed for ocean hexes

A) Great Artists don't build academies
B) We don't even know how Great Artists will be generated, so we don't know if getting one weakens your chance of getting a Great Scientist
C) Even if A and B cut against Korea, Korea doesn't have to go for a cultural victory and can still get Academies.

 

[turingmachine]

Errr.
1. Great Artists provdie Landmark (obselete now with BNW)
2. Great Scientists provide Academy
3. Great Generals provide Citadel
4. Great Merchants provide Customs House
5. Great Engineers provide Manufactory
6. Great Prophets provide Holy Site.

Since when did Artists provide Academies?

A) Great Artists don't build academies
B) We don't even know how Great Artists will be generated, so we don't know if getting one weakens your chance of getting a Great Scientist
C) Even if A and B cut against Korea, Korea doesn't have to go for a cultural victory and can still get Academies.

Korea's UA provides +2 Science for ALL Great Personal tile improvements. The poster is just confusing the situation by saying academies, but it doesn't change the idea that one less Great Person tile improvement being available weakens Korea's UA.

(Of course their UA could stand to be slightly weaker).

 

[Arachnofiend]

Two words: Desert Folklore. A well made Petra city gets some massive faith yield with great ease.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Korea's UA provides +2 Science for ALL Great Personal tile improvements. The poster is just confusing the situation by saying academies, but it doesn't change the idea that one less Great Person tile improvement being available weakens Korea's UA.

(Of course their UA could stand to be slightly weaker).

Nothing has been stated that the Korea's ability won't include Landmarks to the +2 Science thingy.

 

[Montezumas Hat]

How much faith can a city get? In the early game its pretty much limited to shrine (2) + temple (3) + stonehenge (5) = 10. That is quite a big bonus for late classical, but it is a LOT of infrastructure invested. In the late game the most you could probable get is +30 for a city? Sure that is a huge boost, but that's only if you've been wonder monging and only in your capital, which shouldn't be getting attacked all that often.
I'd consider the main aspect of the UA to be the faith->tourism conversion, with the defence bonus more for a bit of flavour.

Keep in mind pantheon faith. Faith for desert tiles could give a pretty big boost early on, plus a boost in faith from piety, holy sites, cathedrals, wonders, natural wonders and more. All added to already existing defense.

Granted, in the thousands is probably a bit much. But a boost of +50 could be possible, and ridiculous.

Personally, I love Byzantine's ability and would like it to stay unchanged. I also don't understand the hate for Spain's UA, at least gameplay-wise, if only because the risk can very easily be outweighed by the reward. Hell, with +4 faith from natural wonders, they can easily make Old Faithful and the Grand Mesa worth building on.

If anyone needs a change, it's the Celts. I still think faith from all forest tiles would make them fantastic, without being too much.

 

[Hans Castorp]

How much faith can a city get? In the early game its pretty much limited to shrine (2) + temple (3) + stonehenge (5) = 10. That is quite a big bonus for late classical, but it is a LOT of infrastructure invested. In the late game the most you could probable get is +30 for a city? Sure that is a huge boost, but that's only if you've been wonder monging and only in your capital, which shouldn't be getting attacked all that often.
I'd consider the main aspect of the UA to be the faith->tourism conversion, with the defence bonus more for a bit of flavour.

Natural Wonders can raise it very high +10 for Sinai I think. Doubled if you're Spain it is a huge amount.

 

[turingmachine]

Nothing has been stated that the Korea's ability won't include Landmarks to the +2 Science thingy.

Well, I thought the Landmark was moved to the Archeologist on ruins. It's possible it still has it, but the UA specifically stated Great Person improvements. As the Archeologist is not a Great Person it's just as reasonable to assume it no longer gets it, or, at least, I won't fault people like the poster we originally commented on for thinking so.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Well, I thought the Landmark was moved to the Archeologist on ruins. It's possible it still has it, but the UA specifically stated Great Person improvements. As the Archeologist is not a Great Person it's just as reasonable to assume it no longer gets it, or, at least, I won't fault people like the poster we originally commented on for thinking so.

Sadly, i didn't word myself properly.

I was meaning : +2 Science to Great People improvements and Landmarks.

 

[Villager720]

Due to the box art, Im wondering if perhaps ideologies are going to play a much bigger role than we expected. If so, I think it'd make sense for the US and Russia to potentially get some adjustments to their UAs. If anyone deserves some bumps in ideologies, it'd be those two.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Due to the box art, Im wondering if perhaps ideologies are going to play a much bigger role than we expected. If so, I think it'd make sense for the US and Russia to potentially get some adjustments to their UAs. If anyone deserves some bumps in ideologies, it'd be those two.

I don't know what you mean by "than we expected" since they've been pretty explicit that ideologies are the driving force of the later half of the game.

I don't think it necessarily means any two Civs will be changed for it, though.

 

[Villager720]

I don't know what you mean by "than we expected" since they've been pretty explicit that ideologies are the driving force of the later half of the game.

I don't think it necessarily means any two Civs will be changed for it, though.

Well from my perspective, diplomacy, culture and trade seemed to be the real focus of the expansion. They're certainly the topic Firaxis has been most forthcoming about.

 

[ferretbacon]

Well from my perspective, diplomacy, culture and trade seemed to be the real focus of the expansion. They're certainly the topic Firaxis has been most forthcoming about.

And by the sounds of it Diplomacy is going to be heavily influenced by your chosen Ideology. Not to mention the fact that the Ideological Tenets sound like a late game Talent Tree, so to speak, for your civilization.

I think the Ideology system is going to have a major impact on the late game.

 

[warlordtheft]

Scott: Idk man if it wasnt for those longbows you might be speaking French.... that said I imagine it'd be satisfying to turn the Redcoats loose on shaka. Any suggestion as to their ability? Though I dont think you'll get your British wish.

Louis: Red Coats had like a 200 year run. They dont have to be musketmen. Last appearance was in the 1880s with top of the line rifles. You brought up the Tercio... I guess thats something I would have liked replaced with a ship, not vanilla, but still...

Beleive it or not, the last use of a longbow in a real war was WWII, by an eccentric Britsh officer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

Besides, range 2 Machine guns and gatling guns are pretty good as well.

 

[Villager720]

And by the sounds of it Diplomacy is going to be heavily influenced by your chosen Ideology. Not to mention the fact that the Ideological Tenets sound like a late game Talent Tree, so to speak, for your civilization.

I think the Ideology system is going to have a major impact on the late game.

Firstly, diplomacy is going also going to be heavily influenced by the World Congress/UN, not just ideologies. Really, unless Ive missed something, the only effect we've heard about diplomacy and ideologies is that you might have to flip ideologies due to external cultural influences.

And secondly I wasn't disagreeing with its importance. All I was doing was noting that its prominence in game might be higher than I originally expected, as highlighted by the box art, and that it could then, logically, affect the UAs of the biggest ideological rivals in the 20th century.

 

[spyroware]

Byzantium should get something like:

Patriarchate of Constantinople: Capital produces 1 faith PT upon unlocking your first social policy, increased to 3 faith PT upon fully unlocking one branch. Choose one more Belief than normal when you found a Religion.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That seems unfair to the Celts.