Venice and ways to improve it ingame.

[Gilgamesch]

Hey all new thread

In my last games Venice was always the last Civ by points and overall, even when other civilizations where fallen and years later resurected.

So i tried some traits addons to look how it will works.
No real good news here.
Will try to create a single buildings wich will be a "CiVFreeBuildingsClass" typ.
With this trick you can do a lot more, to fix Venice "SuperCityState" Trait.
At least in CCTP Venice trait is very under powered.
So what do you think could be a good way to improve Venice for CCTP?

 

[3335d]

Venice

• Leader: Enrico Dandolo
• UA: May only found one city with a Settler. Foreign trade routes produce , , and each equivalent to one-half the produced (this bonus is gained by both parties to the trade route), and internal trade routes produce and . When trading with City-States, these boni are enhanced by 25%.
• UU (Merchant of Venice, replaces Great Merchant): May found limited Trading Post dummy cities which must be built on the coast and can only have up to 3 tiles within their cultural borders. Trading Posts cannot build World Wonders and produce only half the base per citizen produced by normal cities, but do produce 0.5 per citizen as a base and start with a Harbor.
  
  Within 50% of the sea-route range from a Trading Post, Venice's influence drop with city-states in the range is reduced by 50%, a bonus which also applies to the capital. Within this range of a trading post or capital, Venice may also ask an allied city-state, with large amounts of , to join its Merchant Confederacy, whereby the city-state will give 25% of its yields to the nearest city or trading post. If Venice can maintain its allied status with the city-state for 30 turns, the membership of the city-state in the merchant confederacy becomes permanent. In return, though, Venice must pledge to protect each city-states in its merchant confederacy; revocation of protection will cause the agreement to lapse within 10 turns, which will also happen in the case of outright war with Venice. Nevertheless, the members of the merchant confederacy retain delegates in the World Congress.
  
  As the population of trading posts grows, the residents will agitate for full-city rights; these may be granted when the of a Trading Post becomes 15 or 50% above the average of all cities in the game. Upon the granting of these rights, the Trading Posts will be normal cities. Failure to grant these rights will result in strikes, rebellions, and ultimately revolutions (hence the need to include Gedemon's CD and Revolutions mods).
  UU (Great Galeass): Same as before.

Annexing and puppeting of allied city-states should be available to all civilizations, although the revolutions mod will ensure more balance. Austria's unique ability should be to be able to demand military units from allied city-states without losing influence.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Venice

Annexing and puppeting of allied city-states should be available to all civilizations, although the revolutions mod will ensure more balance. Austria's unique ability should be to be able to demand military units from allied city-states without losing influence.

Two of the new policies are allowing exactly this.

On another note i have some code written in the past for providing merchants the abilty to settle a city, this could work similar for Venice. Limited city building, when no near city state is avaible.

Edit: Maybe the finisher for the early polices could get a similar update, to allow annexing of city-states.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Trait changes:
+2 Gold for each Spezialist, +2 Gold for each Great Person improvement, research boost when finishing a science buildings in the capitol, more tile starts and gain technolgies when gain control of enemy cities.

 

[Gilgamesch]

I would like to get some feedback about Venice in your games.
Do Vencie expend?, is it the last player by points or any other information that could be helpfull.
Still looking to improve Venice for CCTP.

 

[ilshur]

I havent yet been able to get a cctp game to work yet with bnw, but im a little venice obsessed while tinkering with the stats on medmod_IV, and i think this is the right space to contribute:

Venice needs some dummy cities to ramp up science. The lack of science is the principle reason they fall behind. Buffing the degree to which science is compensated in trade routes with more advanced civs might help, but some fundamentally new feature is also called for.

Adding culture to trade routes might help, and adding production and food might be nice, but its easy enough to focus on improving your single actual city while playing venice when you dont really need to tend to others, at least not right away.

I think at a minimum, the great merchant UU should be buffed to occur more frequently, and be buffed to conduct multiple trade missions. It might depend on the game situation, but you almost never want to expend the merchant of venice for city-state influence when you can grab the actual city and all their units. Teaching the AI to 9 out of 10 times buy the city instead of just ally it would really help. I noticed early before starting my Venice binge that a lot of the Venice AI's were just allying with a ton of states and didnt have any puppeted, so it was obvious that they werent using their MoV in the obviously correct manner.

But it all returns to science, and tying science to population. Some better mechanism for local diffusion of science to nearby nieghbors needs to be adopted more broadly, but most immediately because it hamstrings venice.

Furthermore, removing all of the national wonder restricts would also help. i came across a mod on steam that does this, and the code is pretty simple and i tested it and it works stand alone. its the follow:

<Building_PrereqBuildingClasses>
<Update>
<Where NumBuildingNeeded="-1"/>
<Set NumBuildingNeeded="0"/>
</Update>
</Building_PrereqBuildingClasses>

<Buildings>
<!--
Reference Table for adding new National Wonders:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Classical: Cost = 50 NumCityCostMod = 50
Medieval: Cost = 100 NumCityCostMod = 60
Renaissance: Cost = 175 NumCityCostMod = 75
Industrial: Cost = 270 NumCityCostMod = 90
Modern: Cost = 395 NumCityCostMod = 105
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
-->
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_HEROIC_EPIC"/>
<Set Cost="50" NumCityCostMod="50"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_NATIONAL_COLLEGE"/>
<Set Cost="50" NumCityCostMod="50"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_NATIONAL_EPIC"/>
<Set Cost="50" NumCityCostMod="50"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_CIRCUS_MAXIMUS"/>
<Set Cost="50" NumCityCostMod="50"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_NATIONAL_TREASURY"/>
<Set Cost="100" NumCityCostMod="60"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_IRONWORKS"/>
<Set Cost="100" NumCityCostMod="60"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_GRAND_TEMPLE"/>
<Set Cost="100" NumCityCostMod="60"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_OXFORD_UNIVERSITY"/>
<Set Cost="100" NumCityCostMod="60"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_HERMITAGE"/>
<Set Cost="175" NumCityCostMod="75"/>
</Update>
<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_INTELLIGENCE_AGENCY"/>
<Set Cost="395" NumCityCostMod="105"/>
</Update>
</Buildings>


Anyway, thats my two cents. i have a long bug-report to post about my attempt to play version V2, (even tho it says v3 in mod-selection screen) and how loading the mod causes a CTD, but im stil really excited to see this mod get on its legs for BNW, because there is a lot of stuff to correct and balance, and no one else within the broader civ5 community seems to have their head in the game in terms of macro progression and the finer points of the engine.

edit:

In Europa Universalis there is a concept that is a real metric in trade called "Center of trade GRAVITY". Venice needs something like that, to bring more people to want to trade with it no matter waht. Obviously, placing Venice inside a high concentration of other civs would help this by letting them be traded to right from the start, but it comes with the doubleedged sword of also being a weak target for conquest by basically everyone. But adding some kind of internal code that made other civs want to trade with venice more would be good.(either making it more profitable, because historically it was, or just coding in a higher desire somehow).

 

[Gilgamesch]

I beginn with the code.

Spoiler :

<Update>
<Where NumBuildingNeeded="-1"/>
<Set NumBuildingNeeded="0"/>
</Update>

This would allowes all national wonders to be build, without building the requested building in any city. This would create more problems then its solves i think.
The best way would be to create a UB for all national wonders for venice and give them the 0 request.

Spoiler :

<Update>
<Where Type="BUILDING_INTELLIGENCE_AGENCY"/>
<Set Cost="395" NumCityCostMod="105"/>
</Update>
</Buildings>

This are examples for updating the cost, this would count for all civs, and would be heavy to balance since, NumCityCostMod is related to the cities you own, so if the value is to high, you can never construct a nw.

For your ideas, some of them are realy helpfull. Will look if can make some changes with the next version.

 

[ilshur]

UB's for Venice would be excellent, especially if they were themed to provide incremental bonuses based on CS allies and puppeted states, like Grand Canal, Plaza San Marco, Basilica San Marco, etc.

One thing i think would be excellent is a Unique improvement, Venetian Arsenal, that increases defense by 50%, provides 1 gold, and 3 or 4 production. Build only along the coast within 3 tiles of Venice itself, meaning there would only be an absolute maximum of 6 or 8 and usually just 3 or 4.

But buffing the trade routes science output would be the simplest way to help venice, imo.

 

[Gilgamesch]

UB's for Venice would be excellent, especially if they were themed to provide incremental bonuses based on CS allies and puppeted states, like Grand Canal, Plaza San Marco, Basilica San Marco, etc.

One thing i think would be excellent is a Unique improvement, Venetian Arsenal, that increases defense by 50%, provides 1 gold, and 3 or 4 production. Build only along the coast within 3 tiles of Venice itself, meaning there would only be an absolute maximum of 6 or 8 and usually just 3 or 4.

But buffing the trade routes science output would be the simplest way to help venice, imo.

Didnt figured out yet how to change trade route yields.
For the UB this is doable some buildings to keep them balanced up.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Added Basilica San Marco and two new unique buildings for Venice.
Both are buildings are supported to provide some bonusses, like Production per Citizen.
Also we could use a new promotion, and make it civfreetrait.
Many ways to get Venice better ingame.

 

[Gilgamesch]

Didnt posted it, so here is the update Vencie has two new unique ub, also Great Merchant now can also build a City!
So this should help Venice, if they have no CS in there near.

 

[Pepo]

How about being able to build cities after the renaissance(from a historic point of view is the unification of italy)? That will allow venice to still be competitive at late game

 

[Gilgamesch]

How about being able to build cities after the renaissance(from a historic point of view is the unification of italy)? That will allow venice to still be competitive at late game

Hmm, yes sounds good, maybe a techrequest for the build should work

 

[Gilgamesch]

Bumbed to answer a question about Venice

All of my parts i posted above are included.

Also i got several ideas for some new buffs via dll support, but this isnt included yet.

 

[Keyalha]

I am currently in the early phases of a venice game and can give proper feedback once i am trough with that. I hope this will happen during the weekend.

Any improvements for them are highly welcome though since i mostly only play japan,germany or venice since those are cultures i can relate to in real life.

Edit: is it intentional that i gain acess to settlers via the tribe hut?

 

[Gilgamesch]

I am currently in the early phases of a venice game and can give proper feedback once i am trough with that. I hope this will happen during the weekend.

Any improvements for them are highly welcome though since i mostly only play japan,germany or venice since those are cultures i can relate to in real life.

Edit: is it intentional that i gain acess to settlers via the tribe hut?

Not really, i coded this parts more then a year ago, i need to get back into it, before i can give a propper answer.


Anyway you can also build cities via the Great Merchant, it could be that i altered some code, and this allowes settlers for venice.

 

[Keyalha]

Not really, i coded this parts more then a year ago, i need to get back into it, before i can give a propper answer.


Anyway you can also build cities via the Great Merchant, it could be that i altered some code, and this allowes settlers for venice.

If you do so be aware that there are some odd loopholes.
I know this from a discussion regarding the vanilla game that there are several checks thrown around inside the whole code like for example with my current modded game while you get acess to settler the button to create a city is greyed out.

Another check that exists in vanilla is even if you can click the button it wont found it since there is another check in the script that actually places the city afair but take that with a grain of salt.

Those kind of checks for venice specific conditions are thrown in at various kind of odd places.

This all stems from someone trying to make venice able to build settlers and create citys in the base game + addons/dlc.

If you are already aware of those things just disregard my post

 

[Gilgamesch]

What do you guys think about a big boni for venice?

What i have in mind, is the area_yield_modifer.
Short example if you set it to 100 =Production, everything that creates productions is doubled.

This could help a lot, since venice is still weak compared to other civs, and the fact that CCTP loves big empires.

 

[Keyalha]

What do you guys think about a big boni for venice?

What i have in mind, is the area_yield_modifer.
Short example if you set it to 100 =Production, everything that creates productions is doubled.

This could help a lot, since venice is still weak compared to other civs, and the fact that CCTP loves big empires.

I think thats a good start.
Does the puppeting mechanic still work the same as vanilla?

I think the first step would be to fix the settler loopholes and let those grant great merchants of venice like in vanilla.

Another big problem i see is since its only one city + puppets at best manpower will be a huge problem depending on how its handled with manpower from puppets.

 

[Gilgamesch]

I think thats a good start.
Does the puppeting mechanic still work the same as vanilla?

I think the first step would be to fix the settler loopholes and let those grant great merchants of venice like in vanilla.

Another big problem i see is since its only one city + puppets at best manpower will be a huge problem depending on how its handled with manpower from puppets.

To be honest i never thought much about venice in the last year.

Most of the new mechanics in CCTP came after the venice buff.

Most balance acts we could do need some lua, so i would need Gyogens help, he does the most lua work this days.


For the settler gifts, this would need a lot of work i would need to create unique building replacements for the wonders that grants settlers.
To answer your question, the puppet mechanic is the same like the vanilla ones.
Anyway there are 2 unique buildings for venice that came up with the tech tree.