Venice discussion

[Dreadnought]

Anyone mention yet that you can get the Great Merchant of Venice with faith?

Trade until the Industrial era, then expand like a mofo.

 

[Seek]

Screenshot says "acquire"

I'm afraid it doesn't, or at least not where it matters. Look again, under "game info" it says "purchase":

Spoiler :

It says "acquire" under the vague "strategy" heading.

 

[Menzies]

It does seem to imply that "purchase" is just the term being used for what the merchant is doing, hence it being written as "acquire" in the strategy section.

 

[Leugi]

It seems like that specially since it also uses the word "outright" after the word acquire.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I wouldn't burn my brain over the interpretation of a few words right now. We should know how exactly it works by the end of the week.

*Enter Ed Beach, stage left

Ed Beach: You have violated the sacred trust by reading forbidden tomes! Therefore I will not allow you to know the full details until the very day of release.

*Exit Ed Beach, stage left

Civfanatics chorus: Woe is me! Woe is me!

 

[Galgus]

Unless trade routes are absurdly awesome, Venice seems very lackluster since thats the only real attraction for me.

Why bother purchasing a city state as a puppet when a military could do that without need of a Great Merchant?

Will Venice be able to supercharge their capitol with the puppets more than other civs?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't think puppet means that in the sense of capturing a city-state by force.

I truly think it means it in the Austrian Diplomatic Marriage sense. since Austria can marry a city-state and choose to make it a puppet or annex it. Venice just doesn't have the annexation option. Thereby removing the city-state nature of the city just like Austria.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The game info doesn't say the merchant is consumed. The strategy does. Suggesting you either
1. Purchase it with the MoV
2. Acquire it, and that uses up the MoV

 

[Galgus]

I just don't find a new way to do an old thing very interesting.

I'm wondering how much the extra trade routes will change playstyles though.

 

[Calouste]

Unless trade routes are absurdly awesome, Venice seems very lackluster since thats the only real attraction for me.

Why bother purchasing a city state as a puppet when a military could do that without need of a Great Merchant?

Will Venice be able to supercharge their capitol with the puppets more than other civs?

To avoid diplomatic penalties.

 

[NoPartials]

Venice is extremely limited IMO. Their unique unit basically means you have to start on the water somewhere. If you wind up in the middle of a continent, you are kinda screwed as Venice. (idk if this was covered yet, i haven't read all the pages)

 

[Seek]

I honestly cannot remember ever reading a unit's "strategy" section in the 'pedia. Are they generally accurate/provide useful information? I've always assumed the entries were for people who never played civ games before.

(I'd check myself but I'm afk for the day.)

 

[nunor]

I wouldn't burn my brain over the interpretation of a few words right now. We should know how exactly it works by the end of the week.

*Enter Ed Beach, stage left

Ed Beach: You have violated the sacred trust by reading forbidden tomes! Therefore I will not allow you to know the full details until the very day of release.

*Exit Ed Beach, stage left

Civfanatics chorus: Woe is me! Woe is me!

 

[Seek]

Venice is extremely limited IMO. Their unique unit basically means you have to start on the water somewhere. If you wind up in the middle of a continent, you are kinda screwed as Venice. (idk if this was covered yet, i haven't read all the pages)

I'd say it's 99.99% guaranteed that Venice, a city literally built on water, will have a coast start bias.

Edit: Moreover iirc every civ with a naval UU has a coast bias.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Seek: There's also the fact that if you have to choose to take over a CS in lieu of getting the money of a Trade Mission, even if you don't have to pay anything, the opportunity cost is huge.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Seek: There's also the fact that if you have to choose to take over a CS in lieu of getting the money of a Trade Mission, even if you don't have to pay anything, the opportunity cost is huge.

I doubt it's that much, or else players wouldn't consider the regular Great Merchant to be the least useful Great Person after Great Admirals. Plus, Venice has double Trade Routes, so they should be rolling in freshly minted gold. That little Trade Mission amount is pocket change.

And you should only puppet city-states that are useful. Usefulness negates opportunity cost. Please note that usefulness is situational. I can't tell you every way that it would be useful to have a puppet city-state.

And do remember, you're getting a developed city, probably with units, not a level one city. Some of the development costs and work has been done for you.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Eagle: Well, pre-lumpsum nerf, I might agree with you. But now you're talking about one of the few guaranteed ways of getting a lot (>500) gold in a single go.

There's also the logistics of getting the GM to a CS. If you're debating whether or not to use a MoV to take the CS, that logistical issue is a sunk cost.

And sure, maybe you only take the 'useful' ones, for a given definition of 'useful'. But if it costs, say, 500g to take a CS, then that's a total cost of 1000g (counting the Trade Mission loss), which is, realistically, far less than what Austria has to spend for an apparently stronger ability.

 

[Calouste]

Eagle: Well, pre-lumpsum nerf, I might agree with you. But now you're talking about one of the few guaranteed ways of getting a lot (>500) gold in a single go.

There's also the logistics of getting the GM to a CS. If you're debating whether or not to use a MoV to take the CS, that logistical issue is a sunk cost.

And sure, maybe you only take the 'useful' ones, for a given definition of 'useful'. But if it costs, say, 500g to take a CS, then that's a total cost of 1000g (counting the Trade Mission loss), which is, realistically, far less than what Austria has to spend for an apparently stronger ability.

Austria doesn't get double the number of trade routes, nor do they get to buy in their puppet cities. Just comparing parts of UAs against each other doesn't make much sense, and even comparing UAs without taking into account UU/UB/UIs has limited validity.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Calouste: I was referring specifically to the ability to take over CSs ('apparently stronger ability'), not the relative strength of the Civs.

I think that it is perfectly fair to quantitatively look at the relative strengths of the Austrian UA and the Venetian UGP.

 

[thejayq]

I think with Venice it is going to be very difficult to create a large army. I mean only Venice can make units, or am I missing something here? Perhaps befriending with military city-states will be a neccesity for a Venetian civ.