Venice discussion

[sukritact]

The "-issimus" (and related) suffix indicates the superlative form of the adjective. In English, the superlative is formed either by the suffix "-est" or the modifier "most".

Aren't there two forms? the "isimo" (grandísimo), which is generally just used to say "That's REALLY BIG!"; you're emphasizing how huge it is, and it's sorta more emotional, whereas the general "This is the biggest is just "lo más grande".

Generally speaking, I don't think it goes, "Este coche es grande", "Este coche es más grande", then "Este coche es grandísimo", I'm pretty sure you'd normally say "Este coche es lo más grande" for the superlative.

At least that's how I understand it in Spanish...

 

[Seek]

@KrikkitTwo - re: science VC: While I don't think many players will be gunning for too many MoVs after the first couple, getting GSs will be more difficult because you'll only be able to run Scientists in the capital so they'll be popping more slowly. Additionally you'll probably end up with more MoVs than desired because of your puppets running Merchants.

As a side note, I wonder if you'll be able to sell buildings in puppets? I doubt it, but getting rid of Gardens would be nice for example.

Yes. Serenissima is a very very very very very Serene stuff.

It doesn't mean necessarily 'most serene' nor even 'the most serene' It just means that it is REALLY Serene.

So it's serene to the extreme?

 

[Martinus]

Thoughts on wins with Venice

Cultural: seems to rely on GWAM and Wonders
+ venice's extra trade routes can give food/production for Wonder City ( or gold to buy its buildings)
- to get food/production, Venice needs to get cities through war or MoV.. Interfering with GWAM

Probably not the best for cultural victory

You are completely ignoring the fact that GWAM are not the only source of Great Works - they can be obtained from conquest, archeology and city states as well - something Venice is ideally placed to obtain.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You are completely ignoring the fact that GWAM are not the only source of Great Works - they can be obtained from conquest, archeology and city states as well - something Venice is ideally placed to obtain.

They can be obtained through Conquest, but then you are better placed to win through Conquest.

They can be obtained through Archaeology, but they must be 'hard built' ie in Venice itself no buying

Where can they be obtained from CS? (other than gifted GWAM with Patronage closer)

 

[Veras]

Doesn't it? I see this definition of 'most' in the Oxford Dictionary online, for instance:

Well, I think this can be a case of 'lost in translation'. I'm just talking about the use of the 'superlativo' as I know it inside Portuguese grammar. I'll try to exemplify:

If I say 'essa música é belíssima' (this music is bela[=beautiful]+íssima), I'm not necessarily saying that it is the most beautiful music of all musics, although I could mean that, I'm just saying that it is really a very beautiful music.

Here in Brazil we got some pronouns for treatment like 'Excelentíssimo' [a really excelent person, if you want], and it doesn't really mean that we found the most brilliant person in the world.

So it's serene to the extreme?

Well, you can bet there is enought serenity in there.

 

[nunor]

Here in Brazil we got some pronouns for treatment like 'Excelentíssimo' [a really excelent person, if you want], and it doesn't really mean that we found the most brilliant person in the world.

Well, it's the same in English, if I am not mistaken. 'A most excellent person' = 'a really excellent person' = 'uma pessoa excelentíssima'

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

At first I was annoyed that everyone was discussing an Italian adjective, but then I realized it's better than a 75 page rant thread against Venice. Hooray! Progress.

 

[Veras]

Well, it's the same in English, if I am not mistaken. 'A most excellent person' = 'a really excellent person' = 'uma pessoa excelentíssima'

The case is that the use of 'most' in the English case bring the the idea of 'more than other person'. I searched and found some explanations that can be useful.

There is two categories of superlative in portuguese:
the relative, in which we got 'happier, smarter, faster';
and the absolute, in which it doesn't matter wether the subject is more or less happy/smart/fast than others. The subject is just very happy, smart or fast.

And the use of 'issimo/issima' is an example of absolute superlative. There is no intention to compare it with nothing, just to express its intensity.

Here is a link if you are a portuguese speaker: http://educacao.uol.com.br/discipli...intetico-conheca-a-flexao-de-60-adjetivos.htm

 

[nunor]

The case is that the use of 'most' in the English case bring the the idea of 'more than other person'. I searched and found some explanations that can be useful.

There is two categories of superlative in portuguese:
the relative, in which we got 'happier, smarter, faster';
and the absolute, in which it doesn't matter wether the subject is more or less happy/smart/fast than others. The subject is just very happy, smart or fast.

And the use of 'issimo/issima' is an example of absolute superlative. There is no intention to compare it with nothing, just to express its intensity.

Here is a link if you are a portuguese speaker: http://educacao.uol.com.br/discipli...intetico-conheca-a-flexao-de-60-adjetivos.htm

I'm aware about that. But what you say is not true: the use of 'most' in English doesn't necessarily involve a comparison. It is a comparison when you use 'the most'. But if you say 'a most', or just 'most' ('A most interesting person' = 'Uma pessoa muito interessante/interessantíssima', or 'Most beautiful!' = 'Lindíssimo!'), you're using the closest equivalent in English to an absolute superlative (I've once seen it considered as an actual English absolute superlative).

Feel free to correct me if I'm saying something wrong.

 

[Konsti]

Two questions:

1) Is a City State in resistance after you buy it? (Technically speaking, you didn't take it over they still have their "government (you don't choose what they build, etc.", you are just able to use their city and gain profits from it and buy stuff in it) I dont have G&K, how is it for Austria?

2) How much will it cost for the MoV to buy the CS? Will it cost anything, only the merchant?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

City States married into Austria become nothing more than another Austrian city, you can puppet them but they are never "conquered", they lose their City Status (can't be liberated back as a City State), and you recieve everything they had (all buildings as well as any active units).

 

[King Rad]

I think that GMs will be more easily acquired for Venice than some people seem to think. The emphasis on gold will mean more gold buildings and more pressure generating GMs. If this is so, it also means more available to either plant [still more gold] or to puppet more CSs.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Two questions:

1) Is a City State in resistance after you buy it? (Technically speaking, you didn't take it over they still have their "government (you don't choose what they build, etc.", you are just able to use their city and gain profits from it and buy stuff in it) I dont have G&K, how is it for Austria?

2) How much will it cost for the MoV to buy the CS? Will it cost anything, only the merchant?

The MoV does not buy a CS it "acquires it outright" it ie gets it. No buy/purchase so no gold. The MoV is consumed though.

There is no resistance with Austria it is the same as a gift. (although it removes the CS flag)

Also getting MoV might not be too hard for Venice, but they cost you other GPs
Scientists, Artists, Engineers will probably all be harder for Venice to get if it exapnds a lot (2 reasons, expanding Venice needs MoV... and venetian puppet cities will generate a lot of MoV as they run Merchants)

 

[Ulthwithian]

Konsti: Even if the MoV doesn't cost anything itself, the opportunity cost of choosing to take the city over getting a lot of money for the Trade Mission is quite quantifiable.

Assuming, of course, that you forego that money. I would hope that, if they structure it this way, the 'cost' is the full normal revenue from a Trade Mission. As such, if you get the policy in Commerce that doubles your Trade Missions, you would get 'regular' Trade Mission gold plus the City.

 

[Biologist]

Assuming, of course, that you forego that money. I would hope that, if they structure it this way, the 'cost' is the full normal revenue from a Trade Mission. As such, if you get the policy in Commerce that doubles your Trade Missions, you would get 'regular' Trade Mission gold plus the City.

I'm confused. If using the MoV to puppet a city would mean not performing a trade mission (i.e. you receive 0 gold), then how would a modifier for trade mission income provide any benefit? It would essentially be 2 x 0. From what I initially saw I thought the MoV simultaneously performed a trade mission *and* puppeted the city state, but I could be wrong. My thought was that the trade mission income would be needed to start buying units/buildings in the new puppet.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Biologist: You could easily do the following.

MoV has the Trade Mission button.

When you click it, you receive X money like any other Civ.
After that, a dialogue pops up and asks if you want to puppet the City-State for X gold.

This would have the _effect_ of making no money off the Puppet.

OTOH, if you have the policy (is it the Commerce Finisher?) that doubles Trade Mission money, you would see the following:

MoV has the Trade Mission button.

When you click it, you receive 2X money like any other Civ with that Policy.
After that, a dialogue pops up and asks if you want to puppet the City-State for X gold.

This way, you would get both the City-State and the Trade Mission gold.

 

[Merciorum]

All the linguistic stuff at the top of the page; are you arguing about Venetian or Italian?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Actually no, its not like here in brazil.

If you say "piu serene", its like you say "piu bella". More tham >

Venezia e piu serena del Genoa
La Serenissima repubblica di venezia, its the correct way, as Serenissima in a rough traslate would be most serene, and piu serena would be more serene

At least it's what i learned, could be wrong though, if any italian can speak for this matter

But that's not quite true either. There's a difference between "più serena di" and "la più serena." The latter is "most serene" (superlativo) while the former is "more serene than" (comparativo).

At least, that's the way I was taught when I learned Italian. I'm not a native Italian speaker, but I did at least learn Italian. Then again, I forgot to match gender earlier, so maybe I'm not the best source.

 

[Seek]

The MoV does not buy a CS it "acquires it outright" it ie gets it. No buy/purchase so no gold. The MoV is consumed though.

This is incorrect. The UU description says that the MoV can "purchase" city-states, so there will be a cost to puppeting a CS.

Also getting MoV might not be too hard for Venice, but they cost you other GPs
Scientists, Artists, Engineers will probably all be harder for Venice to get if it exapnds a lot (2 reasons, expanding Venice needs MoV... and venetian puppet cities will generate a lot of MoV as they run Merchants)

I agree with the thrust of this argument, but I disagree as to the first reason. Like I said in my previous post I really don't think Venice will want more than 2-3 early MoVs to start building an empire (after that other civs will have planted cities near enough to make them worth puppeting), and you will only be having one city to run engineers, artists and scientists in so they will pop more slowly because of that more than Venice "needing" MoVs.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Screenshot says "acquire"