Venice discussion

[BSPollux]

Anyone know if the puppet citys of Venice are locked on gold focus like all the others? Because it would be quite annoying

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I think that they will be (though I've not seen any confirmation of this). The reason I say this is because you can buy any buildings or units, so it would make sense for it to have a gold focus.

 

[Altisma]

Nothing has been said about controlling puppet cities, only buying things in them, if you could set the focus then they suddenly become annexed cities that randomly build stuff. This is why Venice will fail in the long term in Science and Culture races because it can't work specialists anywhere else than Venice.

 

[EEE_BOY]

Why bad? I would farm the puppet so they generate great merchant of venice while my capital works on scientists.

 

[Altisma]

Why bad? I would farm the puppet so they generate great merchant of venice while my capital works on scientists.

Good luck when a enemy civilization is ahead in science farther than you.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

Since they still can't choose what's built in puppets but can buy specific things they're the most gold focused civ anyway. It wouldn't be more annoying than forcing a gold focus for any other civ, but it makes more sense for them.

 

[Seek]

There is some credence to the idea that puppets may be more open to suggestion (ie, be able to choose puppets' focus) because one of the puppets in the livestream Venice screenshot was producing science, which I have never seen a puppet do before. It may not be specific to Venice but a tweak to the puppet mechanic as a whole.

 

[Teodosio]

Good luck when a enemy civilization is ahead in science farther than you.

With all its trade routes Venice should be able to get some science back from trade, will it not? The more its trading partners are advanced, the more science Venice will gain by trade routes. I am looking forward to play it!

 

[joncnunn]

I strongly suspect given that most of the AIs have low science flavors for a human playing Venice to be fine against the AI.

I'm actually thinking though is that you wouldn't run science specialists in the capital either; but would be running merchants there as well to maximize the number of city states you can buy.

 

[Masquerade]

I would have preferred if Venice's Great Merchant had been part of their UA rather than taking up a U_ spot. I'm not sure if that would have made them to OP though. Thoughts?

 

[I_qua_I]

Welcome to the forums.

I think some proper playtime is required to make these kinds of judgments. Any speculation on these types of matters now is premature. From what it looks like BNW is going to be very different from G&K in a number of different ways. Maybe your intuition is correct and it turns out Venice desperately needs an additional unique feature and that unique merchant is clogging up the slot or maybe the civ operates just fine as is. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Hulking Lummox]

Austria's UA takes up their whole UA slot and it costs them money

I think the Merchant of Venice is probably the real deal. He has a diamond for an icon in case there is any confusing how much of a BA he is.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I would have preferred if Venice's Great Merchant had been part of their UA rather than taking up a U_ spot. I'm not sure if that would have made them to OP though. Thoughts?

I will not play with Venice anyway. But having a weak opponent isn't fun either, which could be the case with Venice. Therefore I like your idea, but I don't know if the incorporation of the Merchant of Venice in the UA is the best way to solve it. Another possibility was that their UA gives a promotion to ranged ships freeing the Great Galleas' spot for a landbased UU. A UB probably wouldn't be appropriate for them.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Masquerade: The main difference between having a UA that gives you additional benefits to the Great Merchant and having a UGP (being the Merchant of Venice) is basically that it's another option for an allied CS to give you with the associated policy (now Finisher, as I understand it).

Right now, Venice is disincentivized from taking Patronage because it can't get MoV from it (well, any more than anyone else can) and it shouldn't want CS allies anyway, in the same manner as Austria.

Personally, I think that Venice is, if anything, overpowered, and the MoV is one of the lackluster elements of the Civ. (Buying in puppets is quite probably worth not being able to create your own settlements.)

Rather like Mongolia and its Keshik determining that it can't get other useful abilities, buying in Puppets is the overarching strength of Venice, and dictates that it can't get many other strong benefits.

 

[Zaimejs]

So Venice will be able to buy City States. If I attack Venice and take a City State, will I have the option to liberate?

And how is this different or better than Austria?

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Merged BSPollux's "venice puppets: Gold focus?" thread, Zaimejs "Question about Venice" thread, and Masquerade's "To much to ask?" thread.

 

[Jalkaa]

MoV puppets the CS, right? And that would mean we can liberate it. Thats how I interpret it anyway.

 

[DanQ]

Even the specialised public will turn their noses up it. I don't know if you listen to that PolyCast emmission, but once (last episode?) one of them mentioned Venice as being a likely civ and the others were like 'Venice? Seriously? I don't think so. Venice is the finest example of a city-state, etc etc' - and in a very despising tone too.

To clarify, not all other panelists thought then or even do now that Venice should remain a City State and not be elevated to civilization 'status' (this includes myself). I didn't comment on it at the time of the episode in question, as it was unconfirmed rumour that Venice was one of the final two civs yet to be revealed by CivV's publisher and/or developer, but did on Episode 176 which was recorded live this past Saturday. (Post-produced version is to be released this Saturday.)

Hope you enjoyed the show nonetheless, and thanks to you and all others who listen in!

 

[Ryoga]

And how is this different or better than Austria?

Here are the differences

Austria's advantages
-Can buy CS at will, making money in the late game is a lot faster than getting great persons.
-Can use great merchants to get more money, doesn't need to spend them, or it can focus on other great persons.
-Can still found cities, so it doesn't rely on neighbors as much as Venice does.
-Can annex the CS thus being able to use them to build stuff including wonders.

Venice advantages:
-Doesn't need to be allied with a CS to "buy" it, it can get it right away.
-Can buy a CS a lot earlier, Austria will take a while to build an economy strong enough to do so, or it will need to waste a lot of early money/resources that can be used better in other ways.
-Can buy stuff on puppets, and there are advantages in having puppets rather than annexed cities, Venice will be able to get more policies.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

MoV puppets the CS, right? And that would mean we can liberate it. Thats how I interpret it anyway.

I would guess so (particularly since Venice could be at war with them before they are puppeted... something like the MoV funds a hostile takeover)

However, can Austria's puppeted city-states be liberated?
[as a side note: they should restore CS status if the Annexed/puppeted CS is taken from Austria... ie the taker cannot liberate it, but Austria could liberate it from the taker... they should also allow OCCs to liberate.]