Venice

I'll take a look. There's nothing specifically preventing puppets from building national wonders or limited buildings.

G

Interesting. Thanks!

Edit: Just rolled Venice again. Doge's Palace still doesn't have a Great Work slot, while the normal Palace does. Also I just had a weird bug I've never had before (and I doubt its related to Venice) but I was just allowed to build a mine on grassland without discovering (what I assume) must have been iron on the tile. Yes it was flat grassland and it wouldn't let me build anything else. I only noticed because the advisor tooltip thing said to build a mine on the flat tile so I checked it out.
 
Interesting. Thanks!

Edit: Just rolled Venice again. Doge's Palace still doesn't have a Great Work slot, while the normal Palace does. Also I just had a weird bug I've never had before (and I doubt its related to Venice) but I was just allowed to build a mine on grassland without discovering (what I assume) must have been iron on the tile. Yes it was flat grassland and it wouldn't let me build anything else. I only noticed because the advisor tooltip thing said to build a mine on the flat tile so I checked it out.

It's not supposed to - specifically says that it does not in the description. :)
Not sure about mine - sounds like a mod conflict.
G
 
It's not supposed to - specifically says that it does not in the description. :)
Not sure about mine - sounds like a mod conflict.
G

Its not supposed to have a slot? Why not? :(

Also all I did was install using your auto-installer. I'll delete all the old stuff manually and try again.
 
I think giving the Doge House a <FinishLandTRTourism> and <FinishSeaTRTourism> bonus would prove beneficial in giving Venice that feel as a trade dominator.
 
They already have double TRs, so they're already getting that bonus, in a way.

G

If not that, then create a trait where puppets can properly purchase buildings? :blush:
 
Venice is so underpowered that everyone universally agrees that they are worthless in multiplayer, and I know everyone in my inner circle will roll a D100 instead of hitting Random Civ so that they do not get Venice in single player. As Venice is fundamentally unchanged in the CBP mod, I suggest strengthening them in some drastic way.

It feels *dangerous* to have Austria, India, America and a few others in any game, because those civs can do horrible things to you without ever going to war. America can buy your tiles. India can passively leach your faith by forcing you to buy defensive holy units. Austria can lock down a city state for *the entire game.* Venice needs to feel dangerous (which they sort of do, knowing that any city state can turn into one of their cities) without having an incredibly easy, near-exploitable way to shut them down. Single player? Conquer their capital asap. He's wonder-whoring anyway and won't have very many troops. Multiplayer? Immediately declare war and eat those sweet, nummy trade routes--you know where they'll eventually be.

What are some ways we can strengthen Venice without making them a fundamentally different civ?

What if Venetian merchants could buy any puppet or city with a courthouse?

Or, screw it, what if they can buy any city, ala America buying tiles?

What if they can additionally build great merchants in Venice while still being able to earn them?

What if Venetian cargo ships and caravans can escape plunder, or othewise defend themselves? What if Venice can always trade with enemies, and any trade route unit started after going to war has a promotion called "Merchant Treaties" making them unable to be plundered by a specific enemy?
 
Venice is so underpowered that everyone universally agrees that they are worthless in multiplayer, and I know everyone in my inner circle will roll a D100 instead of hitting Random Civ so that they do not get Venice in single player. As Venice is fundamentally unchanged in the CBP mod, I suggest strengthening them in some drastic way.

It feels *dangerous* to have Austria, India, America and a few others in any game, because those civs can do horrible things to you without ever going to war. America can buy your tiles. India can passively leach your faith by forcing you to buy defensive holy units. Austria can lock down a city state for *the entire game.* Venice needs to feel dangerous (which they sort of do, knowing that any city state can turn into one of their cities) without having an incredibly easy, near-exploitable way to shut them down. Single player? Conquer their capital asap. He's wonder-whoring anyway and won't have very many troops. Multiplayer? Immediately declare war and eat those sweet, nummy trade routes--you know where they'll eventually be.

What are some ways we can strengthen Venice without making them a fundamentally different civ?

What if Venetian merchants could buy any puppet or city with a courthouse?

Or, screw it, what if they can buy any city, ala America buying tiles?

What if they can additionally build great merchants in Venice while still being able to earn them?

What if Venetian cargo ships and caravans can escape plunder, or othewise defend themselves? What if Venice can always trade with enemies, and any trade route unit started after going to war has a promotion called "Merchant Treaties" making them unable to be plundered by a specific enemy?

First of all, I don't see the interaction between Venice and Austria at all, if anything Venice can totally kill Austrias UA by buying their married city-states, can't they?


Now back to the topic at hand. I'm going to analyze Venice out of a vanilla perspective, mostly because not much have actually changed for them.

In multiplayer, the civ is completely useless, because it is impossible to defend your cities with them being spread out, it is close to impossible to benefit from the extra traderoutes, because any other player you send the tradeunits to will just DoW you, killing your economy. Buying things in your puppets is completely useless, mostly because gold is extremely rare in multiplayer, because you can't run traderoutes. Honestly everything about Venice is just easily exploitable for other players, they can forward-settle on top of you and just rush you down because you only have 1 city's worth of production.

In single-player on the other hand Venice is one of the absolutely stronest civs in the game, higher difficulty city-states overspam units like crazy, so you can pretty much buy a city-state lategame, use their units to take two or 3 other cities easily. Double trade-routes is crazy, trade-routes is your main source of income, providing tons of gold while not increasing costs at all, unlike most other sources of income like building more cities is going to eat away at your income with extra maintenance.
Double trade routes also means double science from trade-routes, which is super-powerful on higher difficulties, trade-routes being one of the ways you can actually catch up on science. Sure, you're still going to have problems, but the AI is a lot worse at exploiting Venice inherent weaknesses.


I have no problem with doing some basic changes to Venice, but please don't try saying that the reason is because they are weak in single-player.
 
Sorry, I did not mean that these are specifically dangerous to have when you are Venice. They are examples of powerful civs that feel dangerous to have as neighbors as anyone. They are fun and feel threatening when they are your opponent.
 
Double trade routes also means double science from trade-routes, which is super-powerful on higher difficulties, trade-routes being one of the ways you can actually catch up on science. Sure, you're still going to have problems, but the AI is a lot worse at exploiting Venice inherent weaknesses.

Venice is basically ONLY viable to a human playing against all AIs, yes. This is largely my point.
 
Venice is basically ONLY viable to a human playing against all AIs, yes. This is largely my point.

I still don't really agree to this. The AI playing Venice vs other AI seems to work fine as well. And with enough other AIs in the game, Venice usually does fine vs players as well. Their main issue is that they need some AIs that they can exploit in order to actually get going.
But honestly most other civs relying on trade-routes works equally bad in multiplayer (and CPP adds a few more of those :D)
 
After testing(randoming) Venice a few games in a row, I'm going to go out and boldly state that they aren't playable, at least not on a Pangaea.
They are suffering from so many problems, most which are just getting worse with CPP features. I figured I'd list a few things and at least start a discussion.

  • Puppets are terrible at building defensive buildings (and buildings in general), not in any of the games where I actually bought city-states did any of them even try to start building walls (I didn't actually try investing in walls in the city-states, but honestly that's 220 gold that you can't really be expected to have sitting around early game). This is made a lot worse by the removal of base-defenses in CPP compared to vanilla.
  • You have absolutely zero control over where city-states are located, so more often than not you're not going to be able to expand at all, since you can't guard the area between your cities from hostile settling.
  • You have no control over tile-grabbing done by your city-states, and you're unable to buy tiles for them so you're completely at the mercy of the games terrible auto-border-expand. This is made even worse by the fact that puppets and city-states tend to neglect monuments (I've actually bought city-states in the medieval era that still didn't have monuments completed for some reason).
  • You're not going to be able to get any monopolies going without a lot of luck or a lot of conquering.
  • Their bought cities aren't owned by them anymore, meaning that when you lose the city(and you will since it refuses to build walls) and recapture it, you're going to suffer a warmonger penalty (and a rather big one, since it is a capital you're capturing). The AI are also able to liberate your bought city-states, making things even more awkward for you, as you now have no way to re-capture the city without suffering the massive penalties for conquering a city-state.
  • You're pretty much forces to run internal traderoutes as you can't possibly be expected to build roads over half the map to connect your cities.
  • It is close to impossible to fight a war with only one city capable of training soldiers. Especially since you can't gold-buy buildings in your capital anymore, even with investment your production-queue is going to be overflowing. Sure you can gold-buy soldiers, and you probably should, but that got limits as well, and you don't really want to buy soldiers in your puppets as they suffer from 'not wanting to build barracks'-syndrome.
  • Just doing the OCC game instead and ignoring city-states works pretty fine, your capital is naturally defensive and you can instead focus your troops on sneak-attacking nearby cities and get an empire that actually is defendable. Doing this however suffers from a major problem, the fact that you pretty much can't build national wonders at all.
  • National wonders are a huge problem even when you grab some city-states, as they are puppets and suffer from 'I don't want to grow'-syndrome. You're also extremely limited on number of puppets as you just can't defend them, and great merchants aren't exactly common.
  • You're pretty much counting on RNG for any chance at getting strategic resources, either they need to be in citadel-range of your capital or they need to be present in a city-states that's within somewhat defendable range.
  • Their UB is still superboring.

The main problem is that half these things are changes that were added as QoL for all other civs, meaning Venice just goes against the core of the game.
Ai improvements means that you're going to be forward-settled like crazy, just in my last game I had 3 civs with a grand total of 6 cities within 4 tiles of Venice. The AI is going to look at you, see your poorly defended un-walled puppets and just go straight at them, ignoring your decent sized army and well-defended capital.
City-states also seems to build a lot less units than they did in vanilla, back then you could pretty much buy two city-states on the same turn and use their massive armies to conquer a neighbor. Now you're lucky if they have enough units to hold their own against barbarians.

Yes, I'm aware that your trade-routes are going to be super-powerful, but you're going to be at war with your neighbors constantly so you can't exactly make use of them.

I am also aware that these things aren't nearly as punishing on island-maps, but I don't play those and I don't really think that's an excuse for being complete garbage on all other maps.


Might as well ask it here, but anyone got a mod that removes Venice from the random-pool?


EDIT: On an ironic side-note, the AI seems to be doing way better with Venice as they are able to buy nearby AI-cities to get a somewhat connected empire.
 
Seems like a lot of great points. Maybe the most egregious of them could be solved by letting Venice just outright annex a CS (and forever after be considered the "owning" civ) with it's MoV? At least then you have control over your cities, instead of being at the mercy of the various awful AI strategems, and this also relieves the mod of needing to make a whole bunch of special cases for dealing with Venice specific AI problems.
 
The only problem you listed that I agree with is that it is difficult to get monopolies and corporations. I enjoy all the other "issues".

While I think your problem might be that you're trying to play them like a normal civ, I do agree that they should probably be changed (and that they are weak right now). They are riding on an awful lot of RNG, which means that games can be impossible or a cakewalk. Reeling it in somewhat (perhaps by making the UB more useful and/or settling MoV more special) would probably be good. These are the elements that are guaranteed and easy to control, and would be a good place to put more of the civ's power.
 
The only problem you listed that I agree with is that it is difficult to get monopolies and corporations. I enjoy all the other "issues".
You're welcome to do that, absolutely.

While I think your problem might be that you're trying to play them like a normal civ, I do agree that they should probably be changed (and that they are weak right now).
I tried playing them in pretty much every way I could think of. If you have some secret strategy that I haven't thought of, feel free to share :D
 
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