Venice

[Atlas627]

I don't think they would want to waste 3 policies in progress without finishing it to be honest .
On the topic of Progress, I can imagine the +2 food/production would help your worthless puppets quite a bit.

If you're going a-conquering, you probably want Authority. Absorbed CS tend to have good yields. I suppose if you are conquering already and have nothing else to take (Piety would probably be good) then go for Progress too. Otherwise I can only see dabbling.

 

[Funak]

Absorbed CS tend to have good yields.

Now I know we are playing different games

 

[Strigvir]

Authority and Progress? Are you joking? The first requires to farm barbarians to stay afloat, the second - quickly expand 5+ cities. Neither of those can be planned on the turn you have to pick a tree.

 

[pandasnail]

I don't think they want the whole Progress tree. The 1st policy on each side is useful, but the rest and the finisher don't work very well for them.

I don't know, whenever I open a tree, I always try to finish it, except when I get an ideology from the tech tree. And the city connections one and and the population happiness one might be good. Venetian puppet population counts for luxury happiness, so I assume they count for that too. Haven't tested as yet.

I don't think they would want to waste 3 policies in progress without finishing it to be honest .
On the topic of Progress, I can imagine the +2 food/production would help your worthless puppets quite a bit.

They aren't worthless puppets at all. They can buy any unit, barracks or not. I mean, yes exp units are better, but pre-railroads it can take quite a few turns for me to get units from my main cities to the war front. As above, they count for luxuries. They can build national wonders now to keep Venice itself on World Wonders and crucial regular buildings. Obvi worse than regular cities, but they also don't take thirty (marathon) turns of capital-killing to get. And like GamerKG said, city-states get really good spots in my games. Half the natural wonders on the map start in CSes. 75% or so start on the coasts, so a bunch of growth potential, if not production perhaps. And abundant iron, horses, and luxuries. I exclusively play Shuffle map, can't speak to how other maps place CSes.

Authority and Progress? Are you joking? The first requires to farm barbarians to stay afloat, the second - quickly expand 5+ cities. Neither of those can be planned on the turn you have to pick a tree.

Awww, I've been insulted by Strigvir!!! How fun! Rite of passage for the subforum?

As to the specific critique: You and I have different lived experience. You play on Deity I believe. I play on Emperor and recently played on King. On those difficulties, combined with Doge Palace, I can go to war with major civs right away. So that's Authority culture quick, and if all goes well, enough cities for Progress. And what map or starting condition provides no barbarians?

I mean, I've been using Tradition in the six or so Venice games I've played. But the merchant specialist comes super late now, and the tree highly encourages trade routes that don't produce gold. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have no interest in those. I much much prefer setting up trade vassals for Venice.

So I'll try some mix and match of Progress and Authority next Venice game, and if it fails, so it goes. Don't know if this subforum will approve of this kind of perhaps Millennial thinking, but winning is not the goal at all. An enjoyable immersive experience that might have the possibility of winning is the goal. So I'm quite happy to try a different way and see what happens. This is super off topic, but before Gazebo improved the attack AI, I could play Immortal games, where I basically watched an AI game that I could influence, but not win. Quite fun too! Now I get overrun on Immortal, at least last I tried. (This change is very much a good thing of course, just providing an example)

(Of course, Funak could convince Gazebo to replace the internal trade bonus before my next Venice game, and then likely nevermind all that)

 

[Funak]

They aren't worthless puppets at all. They can buy any unit, barracks or not. I mean, yes exp units are better, but pre-railroads it can take quite a few turns for me to get units from my main cities to the war front. As above, they count for luxuries. They can build national wonders now to keep Venice itself on World Wonders and crucial regular buildings. Obvi worse than regular cities, but they also don't take thirty (marathon) turns of capital-killing to get. And like GamerKG said, city-states get really good spots in my games. Half the natural wonders on the map start in CSes. 75% or so start on the coasts, so a bunch of growth potential, if not production perhaps. And abundant iron, horses, and luxuries. I exclusively play Shuffle map, can't speak to how other maps place CSes.

Puppets in my games just sit around trying to build bad building while prioritizing jack, ending up producing nothing and never growing

 

[pandasnail]

Puppets in my games just sit around trying to build bad building while prioritizing jack, ending up producing nothing and never growing

One thing I did forget is that Shuffle map produces all these extra rivers, even one or two tile rivers. So that's growth your map maybe doesn't provide, or you have to pick interior city states where you have to spend infinity worker turns to make farm chains. But the prioritization seems fine to me, tho I do stop monitoring after awhile. One building puppet cities love that I build sporadically with normal civs is the Customs House, even puppets that aren't gonna get a trade route. Idk whether the puppet governors are wrong or I'm wrong. And they don't build enough temples quickly enough for me to try Piety with them. Perhaps the governor would once he knows about the extra benefits. But overall, I think it's fine. They build Monuments, Libraries, Lighthouses, and Markets just fine I think.

 

[Funak]

One thing I did forget is that Shuffle map produces all these extra rivers, even one or two tile rivers. So that's growth your map maybe doesn't provide, or you have to pick interior city states where you have to spend infinity worker turns to make farm chains. But the prioritization seems fine to me, tho I do stop monitoring after awhile. One building puppet cities love that I build sporadically with normal civs is the Customs House, even puppets that aren't gonna get a trade route. Idk whether the puppet governors are wrong or I'm wrong. And they don't build enough temples quickly enough for me to try Piety with them. Perhaps the governor would once he knows about the extra benefits. But overall, I think it's fine. They build Monuments, Libraries, Lighthouses, and Markets just fine I think.

Maybe, they just tend to work way too many specialists for me.

 

[Atlas627]

Awww, I've been insulted by Strigvir!!! How fun! Rite of passage for the subforum?

So I'll try some mix and match of Progress and Authority next Venice game, and if it fails, so it goes. Don't know if this subforum will approve of this kind of perhaps Millennial thinking, but winning is not the goal at all. An enjoyable immersive experience that might have the possibility of winning is the goal. So I'm quite happy to try a different way and see what happens.

Please stick around. I like you.

I believe the original point of double trade routes in vanilla was so that you could run internal and external routes and make Venice a powerhouse. I think that still works well, and perhaps especially with the new Tradition.

 

[pandasnail]

Please stick around. I like you.

I believe the original point of double trade routes in vanilla was so that you could run internal and external routes and make Venice a powerhouse. I think that still works well, and perhaps especially with the new Tradition.

Thanks! I'll definitely stick around this thread, just cause I play this civ a lot, and it seems like most of the frequent posters here don't. But I'm not sure I'm qualified for the high level balance discussions like the one about the Tradition tree. I mean, I don't think I like the trade route change for Venice, but it probably works great for India, another traditionally Tradition side for me. But then, they're a Piety civ too most like, so no trade clash. Idk. I'll leave all that for y'all smarter people.

I do one time have to try to play Venice peaceful and see how that goes. If I GE'd Hanging Gardens in Venice and then this finisher, I certainly could make large pop or high production puppeted CSes if I choose to I think. But I'd rather warmonger lol.

 

[Atlas627]

I do one time have to try to play Venice peaceful and see how that goes. If I GE'd Hanging Gardens in Venice and then this finisher, I certainly could make large pop or high production puppeted CSes if I choose to I think. But I'd rather warmonger lol.

Hanging Gardens provides 6 food in the city, which is actually, like, nothing! 1 trade route or 1 floodplain farm (with adjacencies) provides that much. It makes me sad

 

[Funak]

Hanging Gardens provides 6 food in the city, which is actually, like, nothing! 1 trade route or 1 floodplain farm (with adjacencies) provides that much. It makes me sad

I know, right . The best part of the HG is the free Gardens, meaning you can settle your capital off the river.

 

[Atlas627]

I know, right . The best part of the HG is the free Gardens, meaning you can settle your capital off the river.

That is pretty good, though the Great Writer is nothing to sneeze at. Unfortunately I can never use the writer when it pops out because I've already filled the writing slot from Tradition...I guess I could purposely not fill it in case I get the Hanging Gardens, but yeesh.

 

[Cerest]

Can someone post their experience with a Venice/Authority start? Does the free Merchant of Venice help early on?
How useful is the free 25% production bonus?

 

[Funak]

Can someone post their experience with a Venice/Authority start? Does the free Merchant of Venice help early on?
How useful is the free 25% production bonus?

Considering what I think about city-state puppets, that's the only way I would play Venice. Go for some authority try to take cities that people settle on your borders, expand that way.

 

[Cerest]

Considering what I think about city-state puppets, that's the only way I would play Venice. Go for some authority try to take cities that people settle on your borders, expand that way.

Really? I've always thought the intuitive way to play Venice is a tall game due to the interaction between their UB + Tradition. But with the way you've phrased your response... how is it? o.0

 

[Funak]

Really? I've always thought the intuitive way to play Venice is a tall game due to the interaction between their UB + Tradition. But with the way you've phrased your response... how is it? o.0

No clue, I'm refusing to play Venice, they are just way too bad.

 

[Cerest]

No clue, I'm refusing to play Venice, they are just way too bad.

Lol

I'm not sure if you've ever played Endless Legend, but there is a faction called the "Cultists" that plays like a zealous militant fantasy Venice.

It has a mechanic where their capital city (lets call that city Venice) copies the yields of the 6 adjacent tiles to each village (city state) that they have converted/are allied with. They are locked to 1 and only 1 city though, their capital.

Anyway, I only thought of this because that is what I think of when I think of "authority" Venice.

 

[pandasnail]

Can someone post their experience with a Venice/Authority start? Does the free Merchant of Venice help early on?
How useful is the free 25% production bonus?

I've never gone straight into Authority, but I play Venice, and I have gone into Authority eventually even after just a bit of Tradition, the opener and the old Merchant Specialist one. So I'll try to answer.

The free MoV helps very much if you can protect the new puppet. I think Funak's main problem with Venice is that Ancient Era puppets are hard to defend. And he's right. They don't come with an army, besides maybe one unit. And they don't come with Walls. But if you protect it with an army you already have or just it being in a defensible spot, they do come with all resources already improved, including iron or horse, and a worker to connect them to Venice or do something else with.

If you're successful in warring, imo Venice can support more cities in happiness than any other war side(maybe Persia with that unique courthouse? But then you'd have to mostly give up on golden ages from happiness and rely on Great Artists or religious beliefs for the UA, wouldn't you? Never tried them.), which means more roads and more cities to pop units at 8 pop and more garrisons and more border expansions than any other war civ I've played as during the full body of the game. And since every city but Venice is puppeted, they all get the 25% production bonus you referenced, which is I think quite useful toward cities eventually building the thing they need for happiness. I mean, yes, when you first conquer a city with no hills or even forests, its pretty useless. But it doesn't go away, the whole game, and some new cities have plenty of hills or atolls.

The only thing I don't like for them is the extra prod to land units bonus. By the time it gets going, I already have most of my starting army built, and subsequent armies I buy with gold. That's how I do most war teams honestly, but especially with the civ with only one city that can build units.

IMO, Venice is the side second-most suited to Authority behind only Songhai, who get so much gold from knowing where camps are, esp if the map has rivers to traverse to get to them. And then that gold turns into armies which turns into more gold from taking cities. But that's off topic of course.

Well, that's my take. If you do try going right into it, I'd love to know how it worked out.

 

[Cerest]

I'll try it next game o.o

What makes Venice difficult for me is that they can only have one city assigned to work on World Congress wonders (World's Fair, Grand Canal, etc...) which is ridiculous.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I would use the free MoV for the trade mission. The gold and alliance influence with the right city-state in the ancient era is extremely helpful. Plus, as was said, city-states in the ancient era aren't worth owning. Let them built up their infrastructure before acquiring. I don't buy any cities until they can divert production into gold.