Venice

[BiteInTheMark]

Now Venice will presumably settle a few cities and cut down on that.

Unless you are a human and be able to simply conquer CS, the total amount of cities for Venice will stay the same.
How many MoV are you able to generate before all remaining land is settled?
You will need far too long, before you have gotten your 2nd MoV. And I already can see AI Venice settling crappy 3 distance to capital spots instead of buying good CS with unique luxuries.
I dont think this will change anything in positve for the AI, it will makes it only more comfortable for the human (which didnt need it).

 

[Chandler]

How many MoV are you able to generate before all remaining land is settled?
You will need far too long, before you have gotten your 2nd MoV.

Didn't you receive a 2nd MoV with Authority?

 

[crdvis16]

Unless you are a human and be able to simply conquer CS, the total amount of cities for Venice will stay the same.
How many MoV are you able to generate before all remaining land is settled?
You will need far too long, before you have gotten your 2nd MoV. And I already can see AI Venice settling crappy 3 distance to capital spots instead of buying good CS with unique luxuries.
I dont think this will change anything in positve for the AI, it will makes it only more comfortable for the human (which didnt need it).

You're entirely missing the point. Yes, the total number of cities for Venice will stay the same. The difference is that Venice will presumably now settle his immediate area. That's important because a major complaint about Venice was that his neighbors got to settle extra cities when he is in the game and this change looks like it will cut down on that. The change isn't meant solely to make Venice stronger, it's meant to address this balance/gameplay issue.

Also, G said they are limited to 3 settled puppet cities. So the only question is if Venice can generate 3 MoV before his neighbors start encroaching on his natural spots. After that he can go back to puppeting CSs.

As for helping Venice not get eaten every game, I think some modest buff to his unit cap would solve the issue pretty easily. Maybe G already has that in the works or maybe he has a different plan.

 

[crdvis16]

Didn't you receive a 2nd MoV with Authority?

Or Pyramids, or working tradition's early merchant...

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Or Pyramids, or working tradition's early merchant...

The merchant slot by tradition need atleast 5 policies to be unlocked. And balancing a Civ around the question, do you get the wonder or not is a terrible balance.
Even if you rush the market and immidiatly work the slot (which is yield wise a terrible decision), you shouldnt have a working market before turn 40. Generating 3.6 per turn and the cost of 150 for a MoV will bring you to around turn 80-85 before you get the 2nd MoV. Thats the absolutly earliest point.
Ive looked into my last games, and in that state of the game ive already had settled 5+ cities additional to the capital.

 

[Gazebo]

Unless you are a human and be able to simply conquer CS, the total amount of cities for Venice will stay the same.
How many MoV are you able to generate before all remaining land is settled?
You will need far too long, before you have gotten your 2nd MoV. And I already can see AI Venice settling crappy 3 distance to capital spots instead of buying good CS with unique luxuries.
I dont think this will change anything in positve for the AI, it will makes it only more comfortable for the human (which didnt need it).

No, you are limited to three settled puppets, plus any CSs you can/want to take. Venice no longer has to rely on CSs alone for second+ cities. They can settle in their vicinity. Venice is now guaranteed at least 4 cities in total that are hand-picked location-wise.

You're entirely missing the point. Yes, the total number of cities for Venice will stay the same. The difference is that Venice will presumably now settle his immediate area. That's important because a major complaint about Venice was that his neighbors got to settle extra cities when he is in the game and this change looks like it will cut down on that. The change isn't meant solely to make Venice stronger, it's meant to address this balance/gameplay issue.

Also, G said they are limited to 3 settled puppet cities. So the only question is if Venice can generate 3 MoV before his neighbors start encroaching on his natural spots. After that he can go back to puppeting CSs.

As for helping Venice not get eaten every game, I think some modest buff to his unit cap would solve the issue pretty easily. Maybe G already has that in the works or maybe he has a different plan.

I'm working on the cap, yes.

G

 

[Bhawb]

Venice isn't supposed to settle all of the land around it, it just needs 2-3 cities, which is totally doable. Also note that you'll either take Authority for a 2nd free MoV or you'll have Tradition for faster land grabbing and merchant points, plus these cities will grab some extra land on settling. This is just to take up some extra space so that Venice isn't a detriment to every other player in the game, and make earlier CS placement less RNG since you are guaranteed 4 cities, so even if Mongolia is in the game you aren't hard restarting.

This will absolutely help out, and arguably will lessen the supply issue (might not fix it) because you'll have buffer cities where the enemy can go crazy and pillage all they want without it meaningfully affecting Venice itself. Satellite cities with Walls are an extra couple of supply-free military force.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Venice isn't supposed to settle all of the land around it, it just needs 2-3 cities, which is totally doable. Also note that you'll either take Authority for a 2nd free MoV or you'll have Tradition for faster land grabbing and merchant points, plus these cities will grab some extra land on settling. This is just to take up some extra space so that Venice isn't a detriment to every other player in the game, and make earlier CS placement less RNG since you are guaranteed 4 cities, so even if Mongolia is in the game you aren't hard restarting.

This will absolutely help out, and arguably will lessen the supply issue (might not fix it) because you'll have buffer cities where the enemy can go crazy and pillage all they want without it meaningfully affecting Venice itself. Satellite cities with Walls are an extra couple of supply-free military force.

As far as I know, supply by puppets shouldnt happen (by design), but still do to some degree, Iam not 100% sure how the calculation is done.

I think you all think too much out of a perspective of a human, and less by an AI. The major problem is the AI cant handle the special way to play Venice, and I dont think this change will make anything different. MoV are too worthy to waste them as simple settlers, and you will never generate enough or as much settlers as other civs will be. So it will not change anything.

Well.... just do it. Lets see whats happening.

 

[Forsti]

This change also might just allow Venice to get a religion. Currently you only get pantheon to your capital, which makes it really difficult to get a decent amount of faith.

 

[CrazyG]

This change also might just allow Venice to get a religion. Currently you only get pantheon to your capital, which makes it really difficult to get a decent amount of faith.

Stonehenge + Goddess of Beauty can get a religion with just one city, even on Deity. The scrivener's office can be a good source of early faith too, and writing is already a very appealing tech for Venice.

Not that you are wrong, this of course helps Venice and gives him more options.

 

[crdvis16]

The merchant slot by tradition need atleast 5 policies to be unlocked. And balancing a Civ around the question, do you get the wonder or not is a terrible balance.
Even if you rush the market and immidiatly work the slot (which is yield wise a terrible decision), you shouldnt have a working market before turn 40. Generating 3.6 per turn and the cost of 150 for a MoV will bring you to around turn 80-85 before you get the 2nd MoV. Thats the absolutly earliest point.
Ive looked into my last games, and in that state of the game ive already had settled 5+ cities additional to the capital.

So Venice can consistantly have his capital and two settled puppets by turn 90ish. Sounds good. Venice obviously doesn't need to settle 5+ cities by turn 90, why even bring that up? Gazebo clearly isn't trying to make Venice operate like that.

MoV are too worthy to waste them as simple settlers, and you will never generate enough or as much settlers as other civs will be.

If a MoV can settle a site near my capital then that's worth a lot. That gets me my luxury monopoly, helps me ensure I have strategics my capital and local CSs might lack, and makes my first few cities easier to defend since they are close by. G also said the settled cities will start with extra infrastructure/population. Sounds like a great use of MoV to me.

Also, why do you have to generate as many MoV as other civs generate settlers? Venice clearly isn't designed as a wide civ. What are you talking about?

 

[Gazebo]

So Venice can consistantly have his capital and two settled puppets by turn 90ish. Sounds good. Venice obviously doesn't need to settle 5+ cities by turn 90, why even bring that up? Gazebo clearly isn't trying to make Venice operate like that.



If a MoV can settle a site near my capital then that's worth a lot. That gets me my luxury monopoly, helps me ensure I have strategics my capital and local CSs might lack, and makes my first few cities easier to defend since they are close by. G also said the settled cities will start with extra infrastructure/population. Sounds like a great use of MoV to me.

Also, why do you have to generate as many MoV as other civs generate settlers? Venice clearly isn't designed as a wide civ. What are you talking about?

Don't try to engage, it's not worth your time.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Also, why do you have to generate as many MoV as other civs generate settlers? Venice clearly isn't designed as a wide civ. What are you talking about?

Cause else there will be still a lot of quaranteed free space for neighbors and the core problem of too much uncontested space for neighbors still exist.
You are only seeing the best case a human would play, but the AI isn't that clever (grand strategy wise). Any human will try to get that Pyramids, cause its relative seen a tremendous amount of benefit in Venice hands, but AI will probably not.
Venice will still have only 3 cities while others already can have 5, 6 or 7. And the problem with the supply is still there.

 

[Rekk]

Cause else there will be still a lot of quaranteed free space for neighbors and the core problem of too much uncontested space for neighbors still exist.
You are only seeing the best case a human would play, but the AI isn't that clever (grand strategy wise). Any human will try to get that Pyramids, cause its relative seen a tremendous amount of benefit in Venice hands, but AI will probably not.
Venice will still have only 3 cities while others already can have 5, 6 or 7. And the problem with the supply is still there.

And the difference between having Venice as a neighbour compared to a 3-4 city tradition empire in this situation is what exactly?

 

[crdvis16]

Cause else there will be still a lot of quaranteed free space for neighbors and the core problem of too much uncontested space for neighbors still exist.
You are only seeing the best case a human would play, but the AI isn't that clever (grand strategy wise). Any human will try to get that Pyramids, cause its relative seen a tremendous amount of benefit in Venice hands, but AI will probably not.
Venice will still have only 3 cities while others already can have 5, 6 or 7. And the problem with the supply is still there.

I think Venice being able to settle a few spots will be enough to alleviate the issue with neighbors getting free land more or less. It will hopefully be close enough to normal that people won't feel the need ban Venice from their games. Neighbors might get an extra city instead of 2-3 like they currently do and I think that's minor enough to not be a big issue.

It doesn't seem like this new Venice should be that hard for the AI to play. They get a free MoV from an early tech and can get a 2nd one out fairly easily from Authority or Tradition. The AI knows how to settle nearby city locations. They should pretty easily get 2 puppet cities settled I would think.

And it sounds like the problem with unit cap will be addressed- G said so a few posts above. Did you miss that? IMO the unit cap issue was the biggest issue for the AI.

Don't try to engage, it's not worth your time.

G

You might be right. It sometimes feels like the arguments are just not in good faith...

 

[Rekk]

Spawning extra CSs isn't possible because the properties are set at game start before we know if Venice is in the game or not. So it's a no-go.

I do have a plan for Venetia, however, and it involves the merchant...

G

What about letting Venice start with three settlers? After the capital city is settled, the other two could be forced to immediately rebel after settling, creating two city-states.

 

[Gazebo]

What about letting Venice start with three settlers? After the capital city is settled, settling the other two immediately puts them into rebellion which naturally creates city-states.

Janky.

 

[Rekk]

Janky.

I'm hearing "Good idea!"

 

[Txurce]

I'm hearing "Good idea!"

How do I move to your planet?

 

[pineappledan]

Janky as it sounds, I would prefer a system that spawned 2 extra CS instead of being able to settle puppets. If Venice can actually choose those 2 CS’ locations then all the better. I like Venice not being able to settle cities it can control, and I realize that causes problems right now, but it’s how I feel.